Flame Weapon

Talks that may or may not have anything to do with Hala or NWN

Moderator: Top Team

Asbendale
Knight of the Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:02 pm
Location: Denmark

Flame Weapon

Post by Asbendale »

hi all
I just have a few questions and a plea for the dms to change a spell.
When i started to play on Hala 6 month ago Flame weapon had its normal duration but Black Flame ( the cleric spell) had been changed so it lasted really short. Now about 2 month ago Flame weapon have been changed so it disappears really fast and Black flame have been put back to normal.

I just think that Flame weapon schould be but back to its normal duration or atleast have a longer duration, as it is now the spell lasts 1 round/level...for my charter a 10 level mage this meens that i barly can cast it and get in to a fight with 5 goblings before it is gone....thats a bit quick for me and makes the spell more or less useless for spell carsters of lower levels. i just hope it will be changed cus i really like the spell.

Asbendale Silverblade
silverdragonams
Head DM
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:33 pm

Post by silverdragonams »

I would have to say that I agree...or at least like to know why it was changed. Even with 23 rounds it's not enough to finish a fight. Also, was the same thing done to GMW as well?
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Post by NWDuneAuron »

This topic has been done to death on the Avlis boards. See there for the reasons for the change.
Fredegar
Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:42 pm
Location: Lost

Flame weapon

Post by Fredegar »

Hala is using the Avlis spell code from what I understand.

Flame weapon was changed to 1 rnd/level to bring it in line with PnP standards. Unfortunately, NWN is not PnP, real time gaming and far more combat.

On avlis, they changed flame weapon back to turn/level with the recent spell hooking code after player uproar.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me team.

GMW is the same as it has always been from what I've tested.
Days Awake
Resident DM Griefer
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:48 pm

Post by Days Awake »

"wonders when Hala became part of Avlis"
slave_of_emotions
Squire: Church of Pants
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:18 am
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave_of_emotions »

Well then just add dark fire for mages... because i really dont see why there is a problem with flameweapon since its a pnp spell but not with dark fire that is a bioware spell.
Dark fire is right now now much more powerful then flameweapon, since it lasts turn per level and still increases with spellcaster level so they have +10 elemental dmg and it even goes into critical hits, while flame weapon does not increase at all.
Its only one spell level difference but a huge difference in power. I really dont see why clerics get this huge advantage.

Summon spells were not changed to 1 round per level like in SRD just for the same reason.
Flame weapon was changed to 1 rnd/level to bring it in line with PnP standards. Unfortunately, NWN is not PnP, real time gaming and far more combat.
Actually just looked up and this is the closest spell i could find:
Flame Blade

Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 2 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 0 ft. Effect: Sword-like beam Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes

A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.

The spell does not function underwater.
One minute per level would be in NWN most likely a turn/level spell

And this one is even 10 minutes per level.
Flame Arrow

Transmutation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: Fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You turn ammunition (such as arrows, bolts, shuriken, and stones) into fiery projectiles. Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits. A flaming projectile can easily ignite a flammable object or structure, but it won’t ignite a creature it strikes.

Material Component: A drop of oil and a small piece of flint.
[url=http://www.dynasig.net/?id=2052][img]http://serve.dynasig.net/2052.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://photobucket.com/albums/a296/6_loverboy_9/NWN/]screenshots[/url][url=http://slaveofemotions.sl.funpic.de/mx/index.php?page=4&smartor_mode=album_cat&cat_id=1]and more[/url]
NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Re: Flame weapon

Post by NWDuneAuron »

Fredegar wrote:Hala is using the Avlis spell code from what I understand.

Flame weapon was changed to 1 rnd/level to bring it in line with PnP standards. Unfortunately, NWN is not PnP, real time gaming and far more combat..
Quite right:
Version 1.6.0.3 Changes/Bug Fixes:

- Removed glowing flames from Darkfire with values of +3 or less.
- Hooked: Dispel Magic (IceThorn)
- Changed Darkfire and Flame Weapon back to turns/level.
- Changed the duration of Clairaudience and Clairvoyance from rounds to turns.
Though Hala is running 1.6.0.1, iirc. Nob?
Sable
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm
Location: Leeds

Post by Sable »

slave_of_emotions wrote:Well then just add dark fire for mages... because i really dont see why there is a problem with flameweapon since its a pnp spell but not with dark fire that is a bioware spell.
Dark fire is right now now much more powerful then flameweapon, since it lasts turn per level and still increases with spellcaster level so they have +10 elemental dmg and it even goes into critical hits, while flame weapon does not increase at all.
Its only one spell level difference but a huge difference in power. I really dont see why clerics get this huge advantage.

Summon spells were not changed to 1 round per level like in SRD just for the same reason.
Flame weapon was changed to 1 rnd/level to bring it in line with PnP standards. Unfortunately, NWN is not PnP, real time gaming and far more combat.
Actually just looked up and this is the closest spell i could find:
Flame Blade

Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 2 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 0 ft. Effect: Sword-like beam Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes

A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.

The spell does not function underwater.
One minute per level would be in NWN most likely a turn/level spell

And this one is even 10 minutes per level.
Flame Arrow

Transmutation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: Fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

You turn ammunition (such as arrows, bolts, shuriken, and stones) into fiery projectiles. Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits. A flaming projectile can easily ignite a flammable object or structure, but it won’t ignite a creature it strikes.

Material Component: A drop of oil and a small piece of flint.
You are comparing 2 different things there. Flame weapon from PnP creates a flaming weapon that does 1d8 +1 per 2 levels (to max +10). Flame blade (or whatever its name is) and Dark fire, the NWN spells, add fire damage to existing weapons at a rate of either 1d4 or 1d6 +1 per level (to max +10).
therefore, damage pertential is (lets take the max as its easier) 1d8+10 vs weapon damage (lets assume long sword so 1d8) + magic bonus (as the caster almost certainly has GMW this can be as high as +5, but we'll say +4 for arguements sake) + weapons special effects + 1d4 or 1d6 +10 + strength bonus (which will almost certainly be augemented by bulls str (we'll unfairly assume that the user has no str bonus of their own and only factor the bulls str) so +2

so, 11-18 vs 18-28 or 18-30 per hit.
not to mention the extra +6 attack bonus from using the magic weapon with str as apposed to the flame blade, and the fact that the nwn spells can be cast on others. Even at 1 round per level that can NEVER be called useless

Second issue is, 1 turn per level is not the equivelent to 1 minute per level in PnP. CoPaP works on, iirc, 3 minutes = l game hour and 4 hours per rest. Therefore, at the base setting of 6 seconds = 1 game round, there is only 3 turns in one game hour and therefore 9 game turns in 1 rest period. In PnP, there are 60 minutes/turns in 1 game hour and 16 hours between rest periods. Therefore, you are comparing 4 game turns to 960 PnP minutes. For what its worth, theres 120 rounds in one game rest period...

just for my 2 cents, the best solution I found was to cap the level progression at 1st, so that it just gave a bonus of 1d6. Its a bonus, but its no game breaker
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
kokobil
Whelp of the Unholy Church of Newbieism
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:00 am

Post by kokobil »

I don't play a mage or a cleric yet it seems unfair to me to have set the flame weapon at ROUNDS /lvl while you have the Darkfire at HOURS/lvl and at full bonus?

I understand that both these spells may need a nerfing but in my view the flame weapon is overnerfed compared to darkfire.

I suggest you make both last for TURNS/level since they are in effects the SAME thing (lets not hide behind different names) and for 1d6 +1 per 8 caster levels to promote single classed characters

For the rest I consider the cleric more a class made for powerbuilds since it has only a minor attack penalty compaired to the mage so i see many players powerclassing to get the best of cleric while keeping the battleprowess of the fighter or adding the skills of rogue.

I can't see what you achieve by seting the mage's flame weapons at rounds per level while keeping the darkfire at hours per level and full damage. If you had in mind the cooperation between players this is the last thing you achieve . Now cleric can solo more easily since they have the ability to cast spells through armor and a decend BAB and very powerful buffing spells.

While the mage that due to the limitations of the class is limited at standing behind the lines cannot effectively buff the others. He has some good damaging spells but with the HP the monsters have the good damaging spells end up not so damaging. I as player would prefer party up with a cleric compaired to a mage and i believe that with the current settings you will not have many mages runing around here while you ll have an overwhelming number of clerics.
Last edited by kokobil on Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Psye Shaar
Assistant Head DM
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:05 am
Location: Loitering.... with intent!

Post by Psye Shaar »

Darkfire currently runs at turn/level not hour/level anyway. I do agree that flame weapon should run for the same duration though.

As for limiting the amount of damage, personally i think 1D6 + 1 per level(capped at 10) is fine, as the majority of people i have seen using it tend to be lower level characters rather than higher levels, simply so they can do enough damage to kill a few monster/enemies before they get overwhelmed by them...

Higher level characters generally do enough damage with the weapons they have aquired by that point not to need darkfire or flame weapon... except maybe for extreme cases where the opposition has a huge advantage with either numbers or power....

All of this is of course from my own experience so far and so may be different for others.... :roll:
slave_of_emotions
Squire: Church of Pants
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:18 am
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave_of_emotions »

Last time i casted flame weapon it was actualy 1D4 not 1D6, i dont mind when dark fire gets just changed in same way but right now i get just shocked when i travel sometimes with a cleric and see in my log sometihing like:
xxx causes xxx damage (xx physical, 5 fire, 10 sonic, 5 magical) with a x2 crit its additional +20 dmg total, with x3 its even 30.
Last edited by slave_of_emotions on Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[url=http://www.dynasig.net/?id=2052][img]http://serve.dynasig.net/2052.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://photobucket.com/albums/a296/6_loverboy_9/NWN/]screenshots[/url][url=http://slaveofemotions.sl.funpic.de/mx/index.php?page=4&smartor_mode=album_cat&cat_id=1]and more[/url]
kokobil
Whelp of the Unholy Church of Newbieism
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:00 am

Post by kokobil »

Higher level characters generally do enough damage with the weapons they have aquired by that point not to need darkfire or flame weapon... except maybe for extreme cases where the opposition has a huge advantage with either numbers or power....
3 years on CoPaP now and i have seen countless of high level clerics casting flame weapons all the time. You will never see someone to be able to cast this spell and not casting it, as for the majority of players "the more the better" logic gets always into play. If a player is able to add 1d6 +10 on his weapon he will do it in any time. (unless he is 30 level fighting goblins perhaps)

Seting both Flame Weapon and Darkfire to TURNS/level is a very good step forward :)
I really fail to see the reasoning behind having the Darkfire giving the default Bioware damage 1d4 + 1 /lvl to a max of 10
while having the flame weapon nerfed on just 1d6

Suggestion:
Set both on
1d6 + 1 per 8 caster levels

or if you 'd like it more powerful

1d6 +1 per 5 caster levels

The mage can not melee as well as a cleric
and now tha mage cannot buff his party members as good as a cleric
I really can't see the reasoning behind the current state of things.
slave_of_emotions
Squire: Church of Pants
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:18 am
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave_of_emotions »

kokobil wrote: I really can't see the reasoning behind the current state of things.
same with me... when i think about someone that enhances my weapons then its rather a mage then cleric, i guess this is as well why bioware gave GMW one level later to clerics then mages.

And just to clear it up:
Dark fire gives something like +1 fire dmg per two levels (max+10), without that 1D6 and
flame weapon gives 1D4 fire dmg.
[url=http://www.dynasig.net/?id=2052][img]http://serve.dynasig.net/2052.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://photobucket.com/albums/a296/6_loverboy_9/NWN/]screenshots[/url][url=http://slaveofemotions.sl.funpic.de/mx/index.php?page=4&smartor_mode=album_cat&cat_id=1]and more[/url]
NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Post by NWDuneAuron »

I really can't see the reasoning behind the current state of things.
Balancing the spells. Remember what level these spells are, then look at their old power.
Moredo
Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:28 pm

Post by Moredo »

Days wrote:"wonders when Hala became part of Avlis"
Hala is a part of CoPaP, and when some of the creative minds of CoPaP make any changes, they usually let the other CoPaP teams know about it. We decided that spellhooking would benefit Hala, which it does, with balancing out spell levels vs. spell power.

And as a sidenote, Nob, our World Leader, was a key-player in helping create the spellhooking as it is now. Anyway, people managed goblinspawns before SoU came out, so I'm certain this won't be too much of a problem :wink:
NWD wrote:
Version 1.6.0.3 Changes/Bug Fixes:

- Removed glowing flames from Darkfire with values of +3 or less.
- Hooked: Dispel Magic (IceThorn)
- Changed Darkfire and Flame Weapon back to turns/level.
- Changed the duration of Clairaudience and Clairvoyance from rounds to turns.
Though Hala is running 1.6.0.1, iirc. Nob?
I'm sure we'll update to this version when the time comes too. :)

- Moredo
kokobil
Whelp of the Unholy Church of Newbieism
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:00 am

Post by kokobil »

NWDuneAuron wrote:
I really can't see the reasoning behind the current state of things.
Balancing the spells. Remember what level these spells are, then look at their old power.
I am not sure if you have understood......

I like the TURNS/lvl change

I like the reduced power of BOTH the spells in damage (on Avlis is now 1d6 )

I dislike to see Darkfire last for turns/lvl dealing the OLD damage (1d6 +1 per 2 caster lvls to a MAX of +10)

while the same time you have set

the Flame Weapon arcane spell on turns/lvl BUT dealing ONLY 1d6

Meaning : why you have set the Darkfire so powerful compaired to Flame Weapon?
NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Post by NWDuneAuron »

Darkfire is set to +1 fire damage / 4 casterlevels on Avlis, and +1 fire damage / 2 casterlevels on Hala. If you want an answer on why this is, I suggest you ask Nob - I didn't do it.
Asbendale
Knight of the Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:02 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by Asbendale »

Well this stirred up the nest a bit, but something have to be done. Now Sabel apperently thinks that the spell Never will be useless, i think it is as it is now. I really dont care about ther damage it does, but if it only last a short time then it can do what ever damage you find good cus you will never get to use it in battel, as i said before i can cast it and it dosent even last one fight with 5 goblings, thats way too littel.

I suggest that we make the spell the same as they have done on Avlis as all the worlds are linked, or we completly rule out both spells. Now i see many are a lot concerned about the damage it deals, well wake up gents this is a two way street, why dosent the bandit cleric cast it on the bandits weapons?, that will make the monsters just as strong as the players.

Asbendale Silverblade
NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Post by NWDuneAuron »

If flame weapon doesn't last long enough for one fight, perhaps you could try and use a different tactic? Maybe cast it only when needed, like most mages do with the magical shields and Tensors Transformation?
Sable
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm
Location: Leeds

Post by Sable »

Asbendale wrote:. Now i see many are a lot concerned about the damage it deals, well wake up gents this is a two way street, why dosent the bandit cleric cast it on the bandits weapons?, that will make the monsters just as strong as the players.
because it would take an awful lot to make the AI that advanced.

As has been said, tactics are everything as a mage. Most mages want to buff up with everything and have it last till next rest, this isn't how its s'posed to be, its meant to be a choice in every encounter "do I use this spell now or save it for later". Very few spells are meant to last all day, and those that do aren't meant to do that much.
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
Asbendale
Knight of the Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:02 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by Asbendale »

Well it might be at most mages will cast the spell no matter what level they are, but then take some of the damage from the spell and not how long it lasts.

The clerics have black flame and thers are used much more than mages, so if one have to be changed so does the other so we dont have any huge differens between the two classes.

One more thing, at low level mages are very weak, cant wear any armor and have only a few spells so they need this spell if an enemy get close to them. A cleric can heal, cast spells, wear armor and hit a lot better than a mage and will be more abel to handel a close enemy than a mage. So i fail to see why a low level spell are changed when it is much needed for a mage at the beginning levels.

Asbendale Silverblade
Psye Shaar
Assistant Head DM
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:05 am
Location: Loitering.... with intent!

Post by Psye Shaar »

I'm not sure if this is correct and so would like some clarification if possible...

I've tried using darkfire as of late and although the duration appears to be Turn/level, which is fine, the damage only seems to 1 fire damage/2 levels without any initial 1d6 roll at all. (If it does carry the 1d6 then i'm somehow rolling 0 everytime.....)

Basically, all i want to know is exactly what it's currently set at so that i can establish whether it's worth using at all until the cleric side of my character has reached a more substantial level....

I await an answer with baited breath..... :?


P.S - Sorry for bringing darkfire directly into the flame weapon forum, but it seemed relevent.....
Sable
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm
Location: Leeds

Post by Sable »

Asbendale wrote:Well it might be at most mages will cast the spell no matter what level they are, but then take some of the damage from the spell and not how long it lasts.

The clerics have black flame and thers are used much more than mages, so if one have to be changed so does the other so we dont have any huge differens between the two classes.

One more thing, at low level mages are very weak, cant wear any armor and have only a few spells so they need this spell if an enemy get close to them. A cleric can heal, cast spells, wear armor and hit a lot better than a mage and will be more abel to handel a close enemy than a mage. So i fail to see why a low level spell are changed when it is much needed for a mage at the beginning levels.

Asbendale Silverblade
you and I must be playing different games.

1st-4th level mages are pretty weak I admit, but then, to be honest, so are most classes (the weakest imo at these levels is the rogue or the bard - with a honourable mention to the monk). Once they get hold of 2nd and 3rd level spells, if played cunningly, they rock. Hell, I can out level fighters on a server with more nerfed spells than this including summons nerfed down to 2 rounds per level.

One thing I do agree with though, Darkfire and Flameweapon should have the same duration, whatever that may be.

For what its worth, I've run extensive playtesting on these spells and came up with 2 solutions to the problem (These spells ARE a problem on any server! they break the game at an extremely fundimental level! There are 2 things to look out for to spot a broken spell. 1. EVERY spell caster takes it as soon as they are of the right level to cast it. If spells are balanced, then the choice should be as varied as the characters themselves. 2. Theres a massive outcry every time someone mentions nerfing them with such lines as "you make the spell/class useless"):

1. Cut to 1 turn per level, but slash the damage to its base implimentation (d4 and d6 for flameweapon and darkfire respectively)
2. Slash it to 1 round per level, but leave the damage as it is.

In both cases, the spell remains useful and good, just not the game breaker it used to be.

Please note, this is just a voice of experience making a suggestion and trying to be helpful, not someone making demands or trying to tell you how to run your server. Personally, I don't care what you go with, none of it effects any character I'm playing :P
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
albonia
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1292
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: England (GMT+0)

Post by albonia »

So what is GMW now used to be +1 per 3 levels.
Arkon
World Leader
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:28 pm
Location: Ironton, MO

Post by Arkon »

Ok.. here is the settings, like them or not. They may change in the future, but for now they are what they are..

Darkfire - Turn/Lvl adds 1 fire damage for every so many levels (want to find out the levels, gain some ;) )

Flame Weapon - Round/lvl ads 1d4 fire damage (and goes up as levels go up, want to find out how much, refer to darkfire)

The reason they are different in length is because they are different in power. Flame weapon is more powerful, therefore lasts less time.

GMW = +1/4 levels
Respect is Earned! Fear is Demanded!
Post Reply