Playing Evil

Talks that may or may not have anything to do with Hala or NWN

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silverdragonams
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Playing Evil

Post by silverdragonams » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:56 pm

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I know this subject has probably been beaten to death over and over again. But, considering recent events, I thought it might be worth discussing one more time.

Here on Hala we have 3 well known evil characters. They are not welcome in Mirtho or Nagritch or anywhere else the rest of the "good" players hang out. Which leaves them exactly 2 other people to RP with at any given time. If they do show up, they have to do so disguised standing quietly at the edge of the group (and don't dare ask to join a party going out to hunt monsters). Furthermore, even disguised, they have to put up with a ton of harrassment. I know, you're thinking "I've confronted these characters before but thats what a good aligned character should do. I've never harrassed them." But, in my opinion anyway, after the 30th good aligned character walks up to an evil character and starts in with the "Hey aren't you that evil guy who....." it becomes harrassment.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, and if so please speak up evil character players.

Being evil must suck.

Besides putting up with the harrassment, there are no quests for evil characters and it seems like there is very little DM support....

Wait...I mean no offense by that. It's just that so far evil has always gotten it's ass kicked. Evil should win every once in a while. For example, why not pop in a couple of nasty demons to help out an evil character being harrassed by good characters in Mirtho (or even give DA members an item that casts Gate once per day)?

Any ideas how to make this more fun, for both sides? What should the evil characters be doing besides killing commoners (since killing characters could be griefing)? What can the good players do to make the world more fun for the evil characters? How can the DM's help?

I have one small suggestion that will help in the short term. Why not turn shit-evil (as someone put it in another post) into necessary evil? Maybe a DM could run a quest where the remenants of the Demon Army and the Celestial Army are forced to work together? Or maybe make it well known that the DA is going to be a vital part of defeating Shagarath or the Lord of the Night. Something like this would give the goods and neutrals at least a little IC reason to allow the evils back into "decent society".
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[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

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Kevin5656
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Post by Kevin5656 » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:24 pm

Knowing that this has to do with me I would prefer before you say I am griefing someone perhaps you could say something to me first. I am sure it does suck to be evil but this is a chaotic good plane you are going to have a hard time being evil. Not to mention if you do evil things you know the concequences of your actions. Now I agree that things should be more balananced perhaps an evil city or an underground system for the cities so they can pass through relatively unharrassed but till such a time they get the best we can offer. It is a bit difficult being a good guy as well with things up in the air like they are we don't know the "right" way to handle evil people I mean as a character I would have most likely just sent her to her maker yesterday but that Would have been griefing so I tried to RP an arrest and hoped I could learn something of the evil and perhaps get a DM involved. Didn't really work out though we did have an interesting time analyzing each other and once it was clear it wasn't going anywhere I peacefully escorted her out (( of a town she was banned from)) so she could get on to other things. Anyway this is just turning into a rant...bah
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silverdragonams
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Post by silverdragonams » Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:40 pm

Knowing that this has to do with me..


Actually I didn't mean anything against you personally. I brought this up because I'm good OOC friends with one of the evil characters and I can tell he's been frustrated.

I am sure it does suck to be evil but this is a chaotic good plane you are going to have a hard time being evil. Not to mention if you do evil things you know the concequences of your actions. Now I agree that things should be more balananced perhaps an evil city or an underground system for the cities so they can pass through relatively unharrassed but till such a time they get the best we can offer.
Saying "you're evil so suck it up and deal with the frustration" doesn't help. We all know it's no fun playing alone on the server. And I can see where it would get to the point where logging on is more stressful than real life, when playing a game is supposed to be fun. I guess my point above was, how can we make things fun for evil characters, so that by the time there is an evil city, there will be PCs there to enjoy it?
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

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Arkon
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Post by Arkon » Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:32 pm

I'm going to be painfully blunt about this, and I appologize if anyone takes this as overly harsh or rude or whatever.

Ysgard is a Chaotic GOOD plane. Don't want people to harrass you for being evil? Don't get caught being evil. Use disguises anytime you do anything involving the evil sect you are with. Don't use disguises when you are around people you want to RP with.

It's as simple as that. Yes it is very difficult to play the minority when it comes to PCs. Yes it is very frustrating, but ultimately it is the decision that the player made.

Yes most quests are the good guys vs the bad guys, but as is the case in my Dragon plot... the outcome can go either way. There have been sessions where the bad guys won in my Dragon Plot, but ultimately it depends on what players do, both in game, and in the forums that decides who is going to win.

As far as DA personel having a place they can go and not get harrassed, they have the Demon Temple. That's their safe haven.

As a side note, I will be talking to DA personel personally over the next few days or so as I see them to discuss some things, so if anyone want to take the initative and PM me, it'll be a great help and will speed things along.
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Xanthalas
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Re: Playing Evil

Post by Xanthalas » Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:48 pm

silverdragonams wrote:Being evil must suck..
Along with what Arkon said. ((as is all true and good point)) Some character might try doing what Xai did for Fylian. Being Celestial Army he has certain duties.. but she never drew a weapon nor did anything particularly evil. In front of him anyways. ((though she did attempt suicide)) so Xai took it upon himself and 'befriended' her. showed sympathy warmth caring compassion and forgiveness. As Xai believes that is most truthfully good.



edited for clarification.

silverdragonams
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Post by silverdragonams » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:20 pm

I am only trying to open up a friendly and honest discussion, but I feel like I'm being shot down.

Yes, I know being evil isn't supposed to be easy.

Arkon, you suggest they go to the Demon Temple. Respectfully, I ask "and do what? talk to the NPCs? There are only 3 of them, and maybe 1 or 2 logged on at any given time.

I simply don't understand the point having an evil faction if it's going to be more frustrating for the evil characters than rewarding*. But...I don't play an evil character, so maybe I'm making wrong assumptions.


Maybe, along with Xanthalas's comment above, we should as "good" players have a bit more ooc understanding and respect for "evil" players. "Good" characters don't have to be confrontational ALL the time. After all, the evil faction is really there to make life more fun and interesting OOCly for "good" players.

One other small suggestion..then I'll quit. Why not make Mirtho neutral territory either by an OOC players agreement or by an IC proclomation?
(The village elder, Nicha, Enrique or whoever runs Mirtho decides he doesn't want any brawling in the streets of his quaint little village and proclaims that any disputes must be setteled either outside of Mirtho or in a private residence.) That way, the evil characters can be at least be sort of social without the fear of being beaten to a pulp.

*edit: Just to make it clear, I don't mean rewarding as in experience and items. We all play here to some extnent, for social reasons. Mostly to make and spend time with friends.
Last edited by silverdragonams on Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

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NWDuneAuron
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Post by NWDuneAuron » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:26 pm

Don't get caught being evil.
Ch-ching.

Being overt, "I keel yoo!" evil will get you banned from cities. This occurs on ANY world, and is not just on Hala, not just due to Hala being a CG plane. It is simple ICness for cities to ban mass murderers, or, in extreme cases, hunt them down and toast them whenever they can.

Simply, if you don't like, don't even pick up the can opener. Play good, neutral, or sensible evil.

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Post by Void Hamlet » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:44 pm

Sensible evil is a good term; in a recent discussion there was a vast rambling over evil and that one ought to be more or less intelligent to survive, being evil, or he should possess immense power (which in most cases is achieved by being intelligent). In short, it all ends up with what you can get away with it.
And here is what Sarmanos has offered for everyone to consult about playing evil : http://sarmanos.xwlegacy.net/EvilHandbook.pdf - an official D&D resource.

Making Mirtho Rest a neutral territory will be hard considering one ought to pass through Nagritch to get through to there, though ... Hmm. Arkon?
[size=84]If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and you have to make fortitude saves, you know it's a druid. -Cap'n Charlie[/size]

silverdragonams
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Post by silverdragonams » Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:53 pm

OK...I understand sensible evil. But it seems to me that these 3 people in particular didn't have much choice but be found out due to the circumstances of the DM event. Maybe they made some mistakes as evil characters, but I'm sure this won't be the last time it happens.


As far as passing through to Nagritch to get to Mirtho...well...that would be a good place for a disguise or a teleport spell.
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

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Fredegar
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Being Evil

Post by Fredegar » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:03 pm

I'm not exactly a homicidal evil person, but I am a member of the Demon Army who was caught in the act.. *shakes angry fist at person* while disguised and being like the only halfling around. Now there are other evils besides DA/CA.

First and foremost, it was my choice. I knew when I started that if I got caught it would be rough. I haven't been harrassed or griefed over it yet, but then whenever CA or DotP peeps come around I go invisible and run off unless back up is near.

Not sure what the knowledge around the circles are, but for my knowledge the Demon Army was defeated. Zharasthruon is banished or dead and the demon temple is destroyed. We got whomped and just a smidgen of the forces wander the land lost and confused. This is what I tell people that ask me, whether it may be true or not. :twisted:

In dealing with non DA/CA etc plots. I think if an evil person wants to help they should have the chance to help. Evil villians usually don't like other evil villians moving into their area.. What good would it do Evil me and my plans of berg domination if the Lord of Night takes over the bergs. Nata. Now, that doesn't mean Evil Me should be welcomed with open arms and given all the powerful artifacts to hold while Good You smooshed other evil villian. But Good You should see the validity of letting Evil Me waste some power trying to help destroy other evil villian.

As for areas, I consider every place neutral except Celestia (big good) and the demon temple (big bad). So any actions you do there warrant the punishment you get from the NPC's. In Mirtho, Roland never tells me to go away and Enrique is always there for a playful rub.

Not sure if I said anything above, but in summary: Yes, evil sucketh, but it is a choice that is made.

Whenever I am feeling blue I just look up Sarmonolth's Evil Handbook he has up. Always makes me feel good. Now to just find my villian flair. *runs off to plot*

*edit* Woops, deleted the wrong paragraph in there. I feel I should get a little grief from good people. I am a member of an evil organization. This grief could be in the form of IC intimidation, threats, or being ignored. As long as it doesn't carry overboard and as long as the good person realizes that what they do can have just as many consequences as what an evil person may do.

I am not sure on if the DA is banned as a whole from certain cities, but if I am strolling along in Mirtho buying wares and some good guy says: "Evil person, dieeeeeeeeee!," and kills me, I expect Roland and Enrique to go: "Good person, you are charged for murder, pay up!." The same for any city where said evil person/organization is not banned.

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Post by Grimm » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:29 pm

Playing an evil character ive definitely gained alot of respect for those that do it. As I am one of those people that sara has written about I feel it appropriate to respond.
I play my character the way I think he should be represented via his alignment and variables that are affecting him. I do not see a problem with not being aloud in nagritch or other "good" places. Would this ultimately stop grimm from attacking these places? No it shouldnt. The only thing I have not understood is when IC punishment comes down via DM involvment (Im not pointing any fingers or listing any specifics) I feel im not being left any IC scapegoats / possibilities to avoid it. Grimm is a fairly stealthy character and though im not sure what his Hide / MS is offhand it is pretty well up their. I do feel that he should be able to escape most sticky situations with some here and their he gets caught / fined / jailed whatever. But from the situations ive been left in when npc's have com after grimm, I simply have no choice in the matter in every situation ive been in when "justice" is being served. Will this deter me from playing my character the same way? No... Grimm is Chaotic Evil with several factors effecting that, many of which have not surfaced and may never surface, but he still is what he is.
In all honesty I play an evil character to try to bring some dynamics to the world. I do not enjoy it as much as playing a good character but im doing it because someone has to and in time I hope ill enjoy it more. Im not asking for sympathy or anything like that but I do think sara has brought up some valid points. I think playing evil should be encouraged in many aspects just because it brings true dynamics to a world...
Ill end with that much for now...
~Sam

T'Holoth Shadowborn
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Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:51 pm

Great discussion Sara! Your much better with words than I am. I've tried to approach this topic a few times.

Playing an evil character IS very hard and it does suck. Why? Because most of socieity (and PCs) won't accept what your doing.
I know it's stupid to compare real life to NWN but imagine someone in your neighbourhood was a murderer. They've killed little kids. How comfortable would you be chatting them up around a bon fire? Most will say not very and the ones who would be comfortable are dumb (imho).

Evil characters will always be harassed and always be shunned by most of the players, especially on a CG server. I'm pretty sure my character should kill evil and demon members any chance he gets. That would get old pretty fast so i metagame and come up with silly reasons not to do it. Why? To make things easier.

It sucks for the players when their evil. They can't just sit around and relax with everyone. Being evil is crazy hard to role play.

Known evil characters SHOULD be harassed, IC. Both by players and especially by NPCs. When a Dm is on and watching and a character runs through nagrtch and they arent invisible or in disguise, the guards should attack them. Commoners should run away from them or refuse to sell to them
"oops im out of stock"

I'm not trying to bash on evil PCs. If it wernt for evil PCs things wold be very boring. It's just that as a good PC, dealing with 'shit-evil' people is pretty tricky. We need evil characters just as much as we need good ones. otherwise its really inbalanced.

i know a lot of comments are about the Celestial army and Demon army.
Lets face it. The players in the demon army are aligned with demons. Think Satan x 10. These guys come to a city and wipe out everyone there. They cut the heads of puppies and make puppets out of them and scare little children before pulling the childrens skin off their body.
Demons are pretty evil. Characters who work for the demons are pretty much guilty by association. The demon army isn't your local band of theives guys, its the cream of the crop evil. Think Hitler, Stalin, michael jackson.

As a player I like when good and evil characters (players) can get together and do quests together. Character wise i consider it cheesing in many ways. Like When Lady Divinia the healer and nestor the malkilte priest were running around together all chummy chummy. That kinda stuff is totally OOC. I'd love to go hunting with grimm because his character is a lot stronger than mine, easy exp for me. It's cheesing though.
IC wise my character won't do anything (if he can help it) with methael because he pretty much see's him as a whore goof off. Not including certain characters in events really sucks as players but it's a matter of being in character or cheesing.

I would like to see a designated neutral ground where good and bad can intermingle. Nothing wrong with soldiers from opposing armies treating each other with respect and professionalisim but in the DA's case, it's near impossible IC because of who and what the group is.
With some work, i think an evil guild could be created and take on the evil demon PCs.

In the end though, if evil isn't discreet it will be harassed and condemed.
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.

NWDuneAuron
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Post by NWDuneAuron » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:52 pm

Chaotic Evil can be done with slaughtering people. Slaughtering people is not an example of sensible evil; it is an example of 'getting pwned by law enforcement' evil. This is the sort of evil that is never used by DMs, because it is ludicrous, in 95% of cases.
I think playing evil should be encouraged in many aspects just because it brings true dynamics to a world...
Playing evil is encouraged. Playing a homocidal mass murderer who cannot be feasibly dealt with within the limitations of the game engine is not.

I play an evil character. You may know her. She's very evil, but she does it by being a manipulative bitch and engineering the good guys into hideous positions, not by killing people randomly.

silverdragonams
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Post by silverdragonams » Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:12 pm

Chaotic Evil can be done with slaughtering people. Slaughtering people is not an example of sensible evil; it is an example of 'getting pwned by law enforcement' evil. This is the sort of evil that is never used by DMs, because it is ludicrous, in 95% of cases.
Chaotic evil is the cycle gang that kicks down your door, steals your stuff, burns down your house and deep-fries your puppy dog.
Straight from the PDF above. I like this quote. Chaotic Evil is not supposed to be subtle. I agree...slaughtering commoners is not the best way to act. But subtle doesn't work in this type of environment. If no one sees you doing evil things, then who cares? Why bother?

My favorite character in PnP was evil, and she was awesome. Seduced paladins, flirted with vampires, betrayed her whole party to the enemy. She was subtle in her actions though. She used to leave poisoned daggers in playgrounds for children to find. That kind of thing just isnt possible in NWN. You can drop all the daggers you want, but if nobody sees you and understands what you are doing, it's pointless. And if somebody does see you all of a sudden it's stupid evil.

So...maybe it would help if you describe exactly what sensible evil characters are supposed to do. And don't go into manipulation and forcing others to be evil for you. That's LE and NE....Typically CE characters don't have the patience for that sort of thing. They are supposed to be a straight forward bunch.
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NWDuneAuron
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Post by NWDuneAuron » Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:34 pm

Why do people have to know you're evil?

Being CE is *NOT* all about running around killing people. See: Kellid D'Prey, Sethra, Vichan Marndry, Tiras... *rambles on*

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