Playing Evil
Moderator: Top Team
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- Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
- Posts: 94
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:42 pm
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Biggest reason a stealthy evil person would get found out for being evil is game limitations. I can whisper, dress differently, walk erratically, grunt, mumble, and hiss while in one outfit and act the opposite in a different one. At the end of the day, if I am invisible and barely seen, odds are the opposing PC is going to pick you out from a line-up of 5 million. You may call it meta-gaming, but I don't. It is 100% game limitations. You have a brazen name above your head, pressing tab highlights anyone around you and behind, and when casting spells you can't whisper the magic you scream it.
Think spider-man the movie. Parker was discovered by the goblin because his arm was bleeding. That kind of detail can not be done in nwn.
Think spider-man the movie. Parker was discovered by the goblin because his arm was bleeding. That kind of detail can not be done in nwn.
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- Whelp of the Unholy Church of Newbieism
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There's a certain personal satisfaction that comes along with being feared and perhaps hated. When you can stand up infront of someone, say who you are and they piss their pants, that to me is the essence of evil, the ultimate goal.NWDuneAuron wrote:Why do people have to know you're evil?
Another quote from that pdf, page 11.There's a thin line between having heroes staring in fear at you and grimly planning to cut you down. That line is called style and all the best villains have it.
Back when I had my own CE character, I used to send a quick tell out that my character is evil and that they will most likely die to a character that was bugging me or just happenned to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This gives them the opportunity to either run or think up of a quick IC reason to get away if they don't want to take part. All that's left is making sure oocly that they can get their corpse back and it's all good. It is a bit more work but once you get a good anti-griefing system down, being evil is just a matter of finding your own style.
As I said in that other post, I'm really sorry that "shit-evil" was taken to mean that CE is a bad way to go. I honestly did not mean for it to go that way.
The big discussion though, is what to do with these evil people. How about we make this system go in the other dirrection too? Get the good people to send a quick tell saying that you're evil and you'll most likely get smiten (smited, smoked...?) and then make sure OOCly that they get their corpse back afterwards. Unless you're the one who's killed anyways but then that would just be your own fault.
Pitched Black
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- Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
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I face a similar problem with LG. Once Sulavan has ID'd an evil character, assuming he rates his chances, he should be laying the smack down in short order. Assuming he feels out of his league, he should be going to find someone that can do the job. However, this presents (far too often) the fear of griefing and ruining of fun for other players - this is actually why Sulavan tends to make a big deal out of being a righcheous tosser as soon as he meets dodgy people. Its my desparate attempt to say "play it subtle please, I don't want to get into the CvC that will result from you not being". From what you say, I need to develope my own "anti griefing mechanism" to deal with this, so the suggestions are more than welcome.
As for "neutral areas". I gotta admit, for purely selfish reasons, I'd hate for such a place to be in such an areas as Mithro. Such an area would rule Sulavan out of going there (unless it was to pick a fight ), so having it right out side of celestia would be painful. I'm willing to cheese and metagame with the best of them to ensure that people have a good time, but there are limits. I've had Sulavan walk away from levelling trips with Aq and Jill because Jill summoned a shadow cos I can't reconcile that with the character. Having him sit around a fire chatting merrily with them is just never going to be something that can be concieved of. As much as we need Evil characters to add flavour, I believe we also need Good characters that are going to stick to their guns. Whats the point in managing to play the great villain if no one will stand up to you because they excuse you for being a player?
As for "neutral areas". I gotta admit, for purely selfish reasons, I'd hate for such a place to be in such an areas as Mithro. Such an area would rule Sulavan out of going there (unless it was to pick a fight ), so having it right out side of celestia would be painful. I'm willing to cheese and metagame with the best of them to ensure that people have a good time, but there are limits. I've had Sulavan walk away from levelling trips with Aq and Jill because Jill summoned a shadow cos I can't reconcile that with the character. Having him sit around a fire chatting merrily with them is just never going to be something that can be concieved of. As much as we need Evil characters to add flavour, I believe we also need Good characters that are going to stick to their guns. Whats the point in managing to play the great villain if no one will stand up to you because they excuse you for being a player?
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
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- Honor Guard: Church of Pants
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- Head DM
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hmmm...after a bit of thought, a neutral area is something that can be done in character. A tavern where all are welcome and where arguing and brawling will be harshly delt with by the owner comes to mind. Might be a good project for Sara....As for "neutral areas". I gotta admit, for purely selfish reasons, I'd hate for such a place to be in such an areas as Mithro.
Why do people have to know you're evil?
Once again, we're talking about CE. These are the bullies, the psychos, and the ones who want to destroy for the sake of destruction. As Pitched Black said, these are generally the characters enjoy having their nefarious deeds well known. "behind the scenes" isn't really part of that. So...my question still stands...how does a CE person act and still be "sensible" especially considering game limitations?
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]
www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]
www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
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- Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:12 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
Ok, I am hoping this post clear a few things up.
First off, all of this info is OOC.
The Demon Army has been beated and the mortal vessel of Zarasthruon has been killed. His essence has been banished from this realm never to return. (At least within the next little while.) Zarasthruon can merely project his shadow unto this world to communicate pseudo-in-person with his minions.
Grimm Imagolas, IC is going to be gathering the remnants of the Demon Armies to his banner and initiating the sound of war to all. In this aspect, the Angelic and Demonic Warzones are going into the mod with areas where the two sides can battle it out. I plan for it to be similar to the Avlissian war zones.
I plan on also enhancing the Demonic Fortress. Making it mor PC friendly and actually have a reason to go there and do things. It will become a central location for the DA members to go to.
Assuming I can get ahold of a decent war script, it should allow PC's to pledge loyalty to one side or the other so they can lay the smack down on Demons or Celestials. This will not join them up with the Armies, for that will still be in the hands of a DM and/or PC which has the ability to do such things. Pledging loyalty will allow you to view and fight the opposing side as a hostile target once you pledge to one side or the other.
I want there to be evil. I want that evil played well, however. So, it is important that evil characters choose their actions wisely, and good characters do the same. But I want areas where the DA and CA members can duke it out as well as battling NPCs from opposing sides to really create that war feel. I also want a place where the DA members can go to have solace. This will be in the Demon Fortress as well as surrounding area. It should have the feel as if there truly is something to do there as well as a place to feel at home with other evil denizens.
I am hoping this will alleviate frustrations and give both sides, especially evil something to look forward to.
-e'Kieron
First off, all of this info is OOC.
The Demon Army has been beated and the mortal vessel of Zarasthruon has been killed. His essence has been banished from this realm never to return. (At least within the next little while.) Zarasthruon can merely project his shadow unto this world to communicate pseudo-in-person with his minions.
Grimm Imagolas, IC is going to be gathering the remnants of the Demon Armies to his banner and initiating the sound of war to all. In this aspect, the Angelic and Demonic Warzones are going into the mod with areas where the two sides can battle it out. I plan for it to be similar to the Avlissian war zones.
I plan on also enhancing the Demonic Fortress. Making it mor PC friendly and actually have a reason to go there and do things. It will become a central location for the DA members to go to.
Assuming I can get ahold of a decent war script, it should allow PC's to pledge loyalty to one side or the other so they can lay the smack down on Demons or Celestials. This will not join them up with the Armies, for that will still be in the hands of a DM and/or PC which has the ability to do such things. Pledging loyalty will allow you to view and fight the opposing side as a hostile target once you pledge to one side or the other.
I want there to be evil. I want that evil played well, however. So, it is important that evil characters choose their actions wisely, and good characters do the same. But I want areas where the DA and CA members can duke it out as well as battling NPCs from opposing sides to really create that war feel. I also want a place where the DA members can go to have solace. This will be in the Demon Fortress as well as surrounding area. It should have the feel as if there truly is something to do there as well as a place to feel at home with other evil denizens.
I am hoping this will alleviate frustrations and give both sides, especially evil something to look forward to.
-e'Kieron
"Every night has a day, even forever has to end... Sometimes." -Magus, Chronotrigger
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- Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
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Certainly their are plenty of evil characters who can achieve fear in otherways... but are you saying that their are NOT situations where it would be considered proper character portrayel to do such actions as killing sprees?NWDuneAuron wrote:...evil character who are widely feared, yet have never gone on a killing spree. It can be acheived in other ways...
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- Honor Guard: Church of Pants
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Slightly off topic.
With the demons beaten, why not introduce devils.
Instead of evil- kill commoners and merchants and fuzzy animals it would be more of a LE/NE feel. More emphasis placed on influence and subtle evil acts?
With the demons beaten, why not introduce devils.
Instead of evil- kill commoners and merchants and fuzzy animals it would be more of a LE/NE feel. More emphasis placed on influence and subtle evil acts?
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
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- Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
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That's one of the purposes of the Forums. So people can RP doing things like dropping daggers for kids and such.
Think realistically for a second
Take Nagritch
Evil Person A walks into Nagritch and starts slaughtering Commoners
Nagritch guard comes out in force
Evil Person A kills guards
within 10 minutes Evil person A has killed every NPC in town...
Is that realistic? Hell no it's not
If you are one PC and you decide you are going to take on an Entire town
then be ready for the fact that next time I am on the DM client, I am going to PWN YOU AS HARD AS I POSSIBLY CAN!
One person is not going to walk into a town and kill everyone. Remember we can only put so many NPCs out. WE can't really show the magnetude of what a city is with NPCs because the server can't handle it.
Think before you act. Is it feasable for one person to assault an entire city? No it's not. So if you do it, expect to pay the price as soon as a DM finds out about it, and expect to pay a heavy one. It makes no sense. I do the same thing when I catch Celestial Army members around the Demon Temple. I PWNED them. One small party of 3 or four is not going to take out the Temple. It's as simple as that.
Think realistically for a second
Take Nagritch
Evil Person A walks into Nagritch and starts slaughtering Commoners
Nagritch guard comes out in force
Evil Person A kills guards
within 10 minutes Evil person A has killed every NPC in town...
Is that realistic? Hell no it's not
If you are one PC and you decide you are going to take on an Entire town
then be ready for the fact that next time I am on the DM client, I am going to PWN YOU AS HARD AS I POSSIBLY CAN!
One person is not going to walk into a town and kill everyone. Remember we can only put so many NPCs out. WE can't really show the magnetude of what a city is with NPCs because the server can't handle it.
Think before you act. Is it feasable for one person to assault an entire city? No it's not. So if you do it, expect to pay the price as soon as a DM finds out about it, and expect to pay a heavy one. It makes no sense. I do the same thing when I catch Celestial Army members around the Demon Temple. I PWNED them. One small party of 3 or four is not going to take out the Temple. It's as simple as that.
Respect is Earned! Fear is Demanded!
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- Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:16 am
Many 'good' players are desensitized to the slight moral dilemma's because numerous DMed events paint things black and white. At the same time, as it has been pointed out, there is a fundemental difference between "I have pledged my soul to Demons and have been seen a few times killing innocents" and playing a selfish/malevolent character.
The reason that the first is seen as stupid evil or what have you is that others servers may not "house" that concept. I have only remember one good stupid evil character and if he had played on, who would know how long he would have surived in the world. Of course, Hala has a demonic army which could possibly support demented killers. Perhaps it has already been done, but roleplay among the demons without an opposition or interrelation sort of thing among demonic army PCs and demons would make it more preferable.
I also partially disagree with the inability to do evil things in Hala. Even the good characters need DM involvement to accoplish some acts. If I was playing an evil character and a DM was on, and there was a playground of children, and my character wanted to leave a poison dagger it could happen. Only you wouldent know if it would do any good, because the DM is thinking up stuff and "rolling the die" if you will.
The reason that the first is seen as stupid evil or what have you is that others servers may not "house" that concept. I have only remember one good stupid evil character and if he had played on, who would know how long he would have surived in the world. Of course, Hala has a demonic army which could possibly support demented killers. Perhaps it has already been done, but roleplay among the demons without an opposition or interrelation sort of thing among demonic army PCs and demons would make it more preferable.
I also partially disagree with the inability to do evil things in Hala. Even the good characters need DM involvement to accoplish some acts. If I was playing an evil character and a DM was on, and there was a playground of children, and my character wanted to leave a poison dagger it could happen. Only you wouldent know if it would do any good, because the DM is thinking up stuff and "rolling the die" if you will.
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- Knight of the Holy Church of Big Mouths
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- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:02 pm
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Well i think ill join this post.
Fist as i see it an evil charter DONT have to go slauthering every man, woman and chield he or she comes around, there is a lot of wayes of being evil on. You can try to gain power by using other players, make small accidents happen and so on, the oppertunites is wast if the player is a littel wise.
Second i think we have a rp ploblem, we all got our names over our heads, some might be a bit quick to assume they know the name of their killer and runn tell all .......this person is evil, but how can you do that if your where killed?, You cant....you just have to pretend that you have forgotten who it was. Unless ofcorse you got his name another way.
3rd: All can see if a player is easy, moderate and so on to kill...thats in my oppinoin a big fault. I have played on servers where you coudent see how tuff the others where and it made one think twize before attacking a person. So it might be nice to get rid of it......just a thought thou
Asbendale Silverblade
Fist as i see it an evil charter DONT have to go slauthering every man, woman and chield he or she comes around, there is a lot of wayes of being evil on. You can try to gain power by using other players, make small accidents happen and so on, the oppertunites is wast if the player is a littel wise.
Second i think we have a rp ploblem, we all got our names over our heads, some might be a bit quick to assume they know the name of their killer and runn tell all .......this person is evil, but how can you do that if your where killed?, You cant....you just have to pretend that you have forgotten who it was. Unless ofcorse you got his name another way.
3rd: All can see if a player is easy, moderate and so on to kill...thats in my oppinoin a big fault. I have played on servers where you coudent see how tuff the others where and it made one think twize before attacking a person. So it might be nice to get rid of it......just a thought thou
Asbendale Silverblade
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- Honor Guard: Church of Pants
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Someone tried thisin LeorTnanshi once. They killed all the commoners and a bunch of guards and tried to role play singel handedly taking over the while city.If you are one PC and you decide you are going to take on an Entire town
Dms caught wind of it, spawned an uber guard and the guy naturally complained, said it wasnt fair, Dms are bastards etc..
With epic characters it's not a stretch of the imagination to assume theres epic guards.
Criminals and murderers being able to walk around town shortly after "being evil" is a limiation of the game engine. The guards get set back to non hostile after x turns our whatever. Not realistic (even in a game sense)
By all rights if someone commits a murder int own and the guard see them, they should be flagged hostile for a long time. Maybe until the server resets atleast. Thats only common sense. Unfortinuatly theres probably a reason why we can't set that up. Zelle argued before that the hostile guards would see through disguises and polymorphed shapes so again, another limitation.
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
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- Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:47 pm
- Location: Maryland
I never posted capturing or taking over nagritch, I had posted that Commoners and Gaurds had been killed across town. Grimm was not alone doing it, it was Grimm and three other evils that assisted. Not that this changes anything, but was simply trying to stir up things make sure people knew this was a serious matter for grimm. Had no intention to demonstrate Grimm "had single handidly" taken over Nagritch.
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- Whelp of the Unholy Church of Newbieism
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1. Evil is as evil thinks, not necessarily as evil does.silverdragonams wrote:Chaotic Evil is not supposed to be subtle. I agree...slaughtering commoners is not the best way to act. But subtle doesn't work in this type of environment. If no one sees you doing evil things, then who cares? Why bother?
If you run around and play the stereo-typical mass murderer CE then basically that's ok if you want your PC to have the life expectancy of an arthritic cockroach.
However, CE can be patient, you say CE can't be subtle?
One name for you straight from the AD&D books... Grazzt.
Chaotic Evil is the alignment, not Chaotic Stupid, it is possible to play an overt evil character without getting the smackdown laid on you every time you run into someone.
The secret is don't leave proof, the Reavers are hated ICly by just about every guild there is, they know we have done some pretty nasty things along the way though hardly any of the things wehave done are public knowledge. However, even though they are not public knowledge they have still had a huge impact on the game world.
The difference here is that you are on a CG plane, which means that you will have to be even more sneaky about what you do. Let people point fingers and mutter what they think you have done, it's all just hearsay.
Stupid CE on a CG plane = Celestial Fodder
One thing to keep in mind, if you are going to play an evil PC you ARE going to lose... a lot... You have to be a good loser in order to enjoy the RP.
Playing evil is a huge responsibility to other players, you're there to add to their enjoyment and give them something other than NPC evil to work against.
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- Head DM
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Playing evil is a huge responsibility to other players, you're there to add to their enjoyment and give them something other than NPC evil to work against.
Which goes back to my original point. What can good players do to make the game more enjoyable for evil players? It seems pretty one sided to say it's their responsibility to make the game fun for us.
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]
www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]
www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
Go along with being decieved and lied to is one thing. On another server I have a CN character thats making his way to any Good align and he just sold his soul to a LE charactor. It has made for a lot of good RP and discussion IC and been fun. Though if you ask the said soulless char he is not so happy about it. It may be pretty obvious to the player that he is being lied to or recieveing evil intent. But would the Char be? Xai may have been recently outlandishly lied to and all he did was continue to be the same old Xai. offering help and such. The reason why is that Xai's wish to help may have blinded him. Now in no way did he put himself in danger's way. As he is not stupid. but he did leave a tiny bit of an opening for more RP if this evil char decides. That helps too.silverdragonams wrote: What can good players do to make the game more enjoyable for evil players?.
just an opinion though.
That didnt happen, what happened was a few ebony mages came in, killed a few guards and some commoners in the marketplace and ran, the people who saw them said they took over the city, killed everyone etc etcT'Holoth Shadowborn wrote:Someone tried thisin LeorTnanshi once. They killed all the commoners and a bunch of guards and tried to role play singel handedly taking over the while city.
Just a major fuckup on the witnesses part
Ammenti Ril
Celestial Order, Phoenix Guards, Plane of Ysgard
Celestial Order, Phoenix Guards, Plane of Ysgard
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- Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
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My character! It's really amazing the amount of wonderful things you can do with another characters soul in the Abyss.Xanthalas wrote:On another server I have a CN character thats making his way to any Good align and he just sold his soul to a LE charactor.
“Divine being creates petting zoo. It gets out of hand.”
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)
Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"
Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)
Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"
Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
Especially when they joke with deletion.ApproachingWinter wrote:My character! It's really amazing the amount of wonderful things you can do with another characters soul in the Abyss.Xanthalas wrote:On another server I have a CN character thats making his way to any Good align and he just sold his soul to a LE charactor.
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- Area Builder
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Just another opinion.
Alot of the problem also stems from what some people consider evil. Take for example a Paladin.. Lets say he fights in some holy war versus another country. Well this other country has its own Paladin. Lets say one is a Paladin of Torm the other a Paladin of for words sake we will say Helm. Now both good based.. both chars are LG but some would argue killing another is an evil act.. right? But its in defense.. so its not considered a HUGE evil act.. and there is the chance at capture and mercy or conversion and such. That would be a good act as judged by some and as treason and evil by another. But now lets take two bandits... one an evil bandit mage the other an evil bandit cleric of bane. Now lets say the mage bested the cleric... but lets him live. Is that mercy to be considered a good action? of course not.. He is probably going to hold it over the Baanite's head. And has a hidden agenda about it. Basically sometimes the action itself is evil but not the intent.. and vice versa.. sometimes the action itself is good but not the intent. Right? So maybe some evil characters. ((Doesnt matter if LE or CE or NE)) Should realize that being evil sometimes seems outragously good. After all some of the most evil people in lore and legend and even history. appeared to be good. ((the proverbial devil appearing as an angel.)) There is too many ways in and out of the whole ordeal. Personally if you ask me. I feel Good characters should be harder to play. as its the harder road to walk.. Doing whats right all the time and being moral and virtous. Neutrality seems to be a little easier to play. You can be a good guy but every once in a while do something either for personal gain or even just as an accident. Most chars I play are CN or LN because of that. But to each their own.
Alot of the problem also stems from what some people consider evil. Take for example a Paladin.. Lets say he fights in some holy war versus another country. Well this other country has its own Paladin. Lets say one is a Paladin of Torm the other a Paladin of for words sake we will say Helm. Now both good based.. both chars are LG but some would argue killing another is an evil act.. right? But its in defense.. so its not considered a HUGE evil act.. and there is the chance at capture and mercy or conversion and such. That would be a good act as judged by some and as treason and evil by another. But now lets take two bandits... one an evil bandit mage the other an evil bandit cleric of bane. Now lets say the mage bested the cleric... but lets him live. Is that mercy to be considered a good action? of course not.. He is probably going to hold it over the Baanite's head. And has a hidden agenda about it. Basically sometimes the action itself is evil but not the intent.. and vice versa.. sometimes the action itself is good but not the intent. Right? So maybe some evil characters. ((Doesnt matter if LE or CE or NE)) Should realize that being evil sometimes seems outragously good. After all some of the most evil people in lore and legend and even history. appeared to be good. ((the proverbial devil appearing as an angel.)) There is too many ways in and out of the whole ordeal. Personally if you ask me. I feel Good characters should be harder to play. as its the harder road to walk.. Doing whats right all the time and being moral and virtous. Neutrality seems to be a little easier to play. You can be a good guy but every once in a while do something either for personal gain or even just as an accident. Most chars I play are CN or LN because of that. But to each their own.