Playing Evil

Talks that may or may not have anything to do with Hala or NWN

Moderator: Top Team

Mothandric
Whelp of the Unholy Church of Newbieism
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:29 am

Post by Mothandric »

silverdragonams wrote:Chaotic Evil is not supposed to be subtle. I agree...slaughtering commoners is not the best way to act. But subtle doesn't work in this type of environment. If no one sees you doing evil things, then who cares? Why bother?
1. Evil is as evil thinks, not necessarily as evil does.

If you run around and play the stereo-typical mass murderer CE then basically that's ok if you want your PC to have the life expectancy of an arthritic cockroach.

However, CE can be patient, you say CE can't be subtle?

One name for you straight from the AD&D books... Grazzt.

Chaotic Evil is the alignment, not Chaotic Stupid, it is possible to play an overt evil character without getting the smackdown laid on you every time you run into someone.

The secret is don't leave proof, the Reavers are hated ICly by just about every guild there is, they know we have done some pretty nasty things along the way though hardly any of the things wehave done are public knowledge. However, even though they are not public knowledge they have still had a huge impact on the game world.

The difference here is that you are on a CG plane, which means that you will have to be even more sneaky about what you do. Let people point fingers and mutter what they think you have done, it's all just hearsay.

Stupid CE on a CG plane = Celestial Fodder

One thing to keep in mind, if you are going to play an evil PC you ARE going to lose... a lot... You have to be a good loser in order to enjoy the RP.

Playing evil is a huge responsibility to other players, you're there to add to their enjoyment and give them something other than NPC evil to work against. :)
silverdragonams
Head DM
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:33 pm

Post by silverdragonams »

Playing evil is a huge responsibility to other players, you're there to add to their enjoyment and give them something other than NPC evil to work against.

Which goes back to my original point. What can good players do to make the game more enjoyable for evil players? It seems pretty one sided to say it's their responsibility to make the game fun for us.
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
Xanthalas
Loremaster
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:23 am
Contact:

Post by Xanthalas »

silverdragonams wrote: What can good players do to make the game more enjoyable for evil players?.
Go along with being decieved and lied to is one thing. On another server I have a CN character thats making his way to any Good align and he just sold his soul to a LE charactor. It has made for a lot of good RP and discussion IC and been fun. Though if you ask the said soulless char he is not so happy about it. It may be pretty obvious to the player that he is being lied to or recieveing evil intent. But would the Char be? Xai may have been recently outlandishly lied to and all he did was continue to be the same old Xai. offering help and such. The reason why is that Xai's wish to help may have blinded him. Now in no way did he put himself in danger's way. As he is not stupid. but he did leave a tiny bit of an opening for more RP if this evil char decides. That helps too.

just an opinion though.
Anniko
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:20 am

Post by Anniko »

T'Holoth Shadowborn wrote:Someone tried thisin LeorTnanshi once. They killed all the commoners and a bunch of guards and tried to role play singel handedly taking over the while city.
That didnt happen, what happened was a few ebony mages came in, killed a few guards and some commoners in the marketplace and ran, the people who saw them said they took over the city, killed everyone etc etc

Just a major fuckup on the witnesses part
Ammenti Ril
Celestial Order, Phoenix Guards, Plane of Ysgard
Gairus
Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:28 pm

Post by Gairus »

Actually it did.

His name was Lord Silver and he was hilarious :)

He is also why Aloro made the damn guards, but we digress...
The joy of IRC.
<Tholotron_praying> I came back from fighting rightious warfare to see Aiq using TK to play with Doss's balls? :/
ApproachingWinter
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:05 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Post by ApproachingWinter »

Xanthalas wrote:On another server I have a CN character thats making his way to any Good align and he just sold his soul to a LE charactor.
My character! It's really amazing the amount of wonderful things you can do with another characters soul in the Abyss. :twisted:
“Divine being creates petting zoo. It gets out of hand.”
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)

Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"

Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
Xanthalas
Loremaster
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:23 am
Contact:

Post by Xanthalas »

ApproachingWinter wrote:
Xanthalas wrote:On another server I have a CN character thats making his way to any Good align and he just sold his soul to a LE charactor.
My character! It's really amazing the amount of wonderful things you can do with another characters soul in the Abyss. :twisted:
Especially when they joke with deletion. :twisted: :lol: :D :P :twisted:
Void Hamlet
Area Builder
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:32 am
Contact:

Post by Void Hamlet »

Eh, don't you bring a vast off-topic here, guys. :shock:
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and you have to make fortitude saves, you know it's a druid. -Cap'n Charlie
Xanthalas
Loremaster
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:23 am
Contact:

Post by Xanthalas »

Just another opinion.

Alot of the problem also stems from what some people consider evil. Take for example a Paladin.. Lets say he fights in some holy war versus another country. Well this other country has its own Paladin. Lets say one is a Paladin of Torm the other a Paladin of for words sake we will say Helm. Now both good based.. both chars are LG but some would argue killing another is an evil act.. right? But its in defense.. so its not considered a HUGE evil act.. and there is the chance at capture and mercy or conversion and such. That would be a good act as judged by some and as treason and evil by another. But now lets take two bandits... one an evil bandit mage the other an evil bandit cleric of bane. Now lets say the mage bested the cleric... but lets him live. Is that mercy to be considered a good action? of course not.. He is probably going to hold it over the Baanite's head. And has a hidden agenda about it. Basically sometimes the action itself is evil but not the intent.. and vice versa.. sometimes the action itself is good but not the intent. Right? So maybe some evil characters. ((Doesnt matter if LE or CE or NE)) Should realize that being evil sometimes seems outragously good. After all some of the most evil people in lore and legend and even history. appeared to be good. ((the proverbial devil appearing as an angel.)) There is too many ways in and out of the whole ordeal. Personally if you ask me. I feel Good characters should be harder to play. as its the harder road to walk.. Doing whats right all the time and being moral and virtous. Neutrality seems to be a little easier to play. You can be a good guy but every once in a while do something either for personal gain or even just as an accident. Most chars I play are CN or LN because of that. But to each their own.
Gladenfar
Whelp of the Unholy Church of Newbieism
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:42 pm
Location: Pennsylvania (USA)

Post by Gladenfar »

Why do people have to know you're evil?
Right on.
*smiles*
Sable
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm
Location: Leeds

Post by Sable »

Xanthalas wrote:Just another opinion.

Alot of the problem also stems from what some people consider evil. Take for example a Paladin.. Lets say he fights in some holy war versus another country. Well this other country has its own Paladin. Lets say one is a Paladin of Torm the other a Paladin of for words sake we will say Helm. Now both good based.. both chars are LG but some would argue killing another is an evil act.. right? But its in defense.. so its not considered a HUGE evil act.. and there is the chance at capture and mercy or conversion and such. That would be a good act as judged by some and as treason and evil by another. But now lets take two bandits... one an evil bandit mage the other an evil bandit cleric of bane. Now lets say the mage bested the cleric... but lets him live. Is that mercy to be considered a good action? of course not.. He is probably going to hold it over the Baanite's head. And has a hidden agenda about it. Basically sometimes the action itself is evil but not the intent.. and vice versa.. sometimes the action itself is good but not the intent. Right? So maybe some evil characters. ((Doesnt matter if LE or CE or NE)) Should realize that being evil sometimes seems outragously good. After all some of the most evil people in lore and legend and even history. appeared to be good. ((the proverbial devil appearing as an angel.)) There is too many ways in and out of the whole ordeal. Personally if you ask me. I feel Good characters should be harder to play. as its the harder road to walk.. Doing whats right all the time and being moral and virtous. Neutrality seems to be a little easier to play. You can be a good guy but every once in a while do something either for personal gain or even just as an accident. Most chars I play are CN or LN because of that. But to each their own.
In RL good and evil are subjective. This is not the case in D&D. They are "alignments" in the very literal meaning of the word, they are not perspectives.
Like them or not, they are the very basis of the game, so you can not change them without changing the game itself at a fundamental level.
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
T'Holoth Shadowborn
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am

Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

In RL good and evil are subjective. This is not the case in D&D. They are "alignments" in the very literal meaning of the word, they are not perspectives.
Like them or not, they are the very basis of the game, so you can not change them without changing the game itself at a fundamental level.
Great point.
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
Xanthalas
Loremaster
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:23 am
Contact:

Post by Xanthalas »

Sable wrote:In RL good and evil are subjective. This is not the case in D&D. They are "alignments" in the very literal meaning of the word, they are not perspectives.
Like them or not, they are the very basis of the game, so you can not change them without changing the game itself at a fundamental level.
Thats kinda what I meant to say actually but that does bring up a question of mine.

But isnt thats the problem? the very words have failings in the definitive soloutioun according to english confines. Unless you refer to the DnD precepts in which case ((and my english isnt great so correct me if wrong)) Neutrality is the majority and any varience is considered extremism and or zealousness. ((IE most people would be neutral something. neutral good evil lawful or chaotic. rare to have non neutrality)) Which does make sense. But please correct me as I have always been a little confused of this.
silverdragonams
Head DM
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:33 pm

Post by silverdragonams »

But isnt thats the problem? the very words have failings in the definitive soloutioun according to english confines. Unless you refer to the DnD precepts in which case ((and my english isnt great so correct me if wrong)) Neutrality is the majority and any varience is considered extremism and or zealousness. ((IE most people would be neutral something. neutral good evil lawful or chaotic. rare to have non neutrality)) Which does make sense. But please correct me as I have always been a little confused of this.
*reads*
*thinks*
*Brain-hamster seizes up and falls off the wheel*
*goes back to her own little world*

:P
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
Crystalactite
Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:16 am

Post by Crystalactite »

silverdragonams wrote: *reads*
*thinks*
*Brain-hamster seizes up and falls off the wheel*
*goes back to her own little world*

:P

Oh no! Teh brian hamstar ;o;!
Sable
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm
Location: Leeds

Post by Sable »

Xanthalas wrote:
Sable wrote:In RL good and evil are subjective. This is not the case in D&D. They are "alignments" in the very literal meaning of the word, they are not perspectives.
Like them or not, they are the very basis of the game, so you can not change them without changing the game itself at a fundamental level.
Thats kinda what I meant to say actually but that does bring up a question of mine.

But isnt thats the problem? the very words have failings in the definitive soloutioun according to english confines. Unless you refer to the DnD precepts in which case ((and my english isnt great so correct me if wrong)) Neutrality is the majority and any varience is considered extremism and or zealousness. ((IE most people would be neutral something. neutral good evil lawful or chaotic. rare to have non neutrality)) Which does make sense. But please correct me as I have always been a little confused of this.
By the definition of alignments as laid out in D&D, yes, most humans are neutral (either lawful or chaotic). This doesn't necessarily mean they do both good and evil (though that can certainly be true), as this is a common and age old misconception of the alignment. What it means is, they do not go out of their way to do either. Yes neutral can mean that you actively pursue the goals of “neutrality” or “balance”, but these are the rare exception (and are more often than not, true neutral). And yes, you are correct, Good and Evil are meant to be extremes and rare (though common amongst adventurer’s, but then, adventurer’s are meant to be a rare breed in themselves). They are the people that actively go out and pursue the aims and goals of Good or Evil, be that in day to day life or in some more grand method.

Please note however, this is the view from the point of D&D, not necessarily Hala. For that, you will obviously need to look to the Hala team
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
T'Holoth Shadowborn
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am

Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

If your going to
a. openly act evil (or contrary to the attitudes of the majority of people present) or if your good, act 'good' surrounded by evil characters
b. start arguments with people higher level than you, or a guild/group
c. piss people off through your role playing
d. go out of your way to butt heads with someone dramatically opposed to your alignment/philisophy

be ready to back up your actions IC and not try and hide behide absurd accusations and comments.

-Your just a powergamer
-your part of that hala old boys club
-your just harassing me because im a lower level
-if you attack me im telling the staff

You reap what you sow.

Higher level characters can only come up with so many ways to avoid CvC before it starts to become cheesing.
[Not imlying anyone from the demon army guild at all here either]

As for alignments, i know theres always an argument about it on every RP world you go.
People try and use modern day ethics and always argue the finer points. The D&D system isn't perfect. It's made to be black and white.
Hero's vs Villans with an assortment of people inbetween. (I know, im one of thw worst ones for mixing modern day values heh)
Last edited by T'Holoth Shadowborn on Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
Xanthalas
Loremaster
Posts: 1883
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:23 am
Contact:

Post by Xanthalas »

Sable wrote:What it means is, they do not go out of their way to do either. Yes neutral can mean that you actively pursue the goals of “neutrality” or “balance”, but these are the rare exception (and are more often than not, true neutral). And yes, you are correct, Good and Evil are meant to be extremes and rare (though common amongst adventurer’s, but then, adventurer’s are meant to be a rare breed in themselves). They are the people that actively go out and pursue the aims and goals of Good or Evil, be that in day to day life or in some more grand method.
Thank you. That was clarifying. ((I sometimes forget in some RPG's that you are considerered a hero or rare person. especially with so many of us around.))
Thanks Sable for clearing that bit of confusion up for me. ((years of RP and still learning something new every day eh?))
Sable
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm
Location: Leeds

Post by Sable »

yup, 25 years so far and counting... and not a game goes by without someone teaching me something new ;)

...its what keeps me interested in the hobby :D
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
slave_of_emotions
Squire: Church of Pants
Posts: 562
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:18 am
Location: The European Union
Contact:

Post by slave_of_emotions »

Arkon, what you and some other DMs forgot is that Ysgard is not only a GOOD plane but CHAOTIC as well. conflicts dont exist only between good and evill but as well between caos and law, thats what the mystara settign is about, that what the whole Blood War is about.

As demon army was introduced, the quests to defend hala should not have been given out to the celestial army, but to local groups like the amazons, instead a power from another plane comming to hala and fighting demons it should have been a local power, perhaps even them trying to find help of the giants.

I since long dont see hala as part of Ysgard.

A big Cheers to NWDuneAuron (hope i spelled it right) that is trying to bring up real elements of Ysgard.
[url=http://www.dynasig.net/?id=2052][img]http://serve.dynasig.net/2052.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://photobucket.com/albums/a296/6_loverboy_9/NWN/]screenshots[/url][url=http://slaveofemotions.sl.funpic.de/mx/index.php?page=4&smartor_mode=album_cat&cat_id=1]and more[/url]
Sable
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:44 pm
Location: Leeds

Post by Sable »

much of the recent events are centered around bringing out a more ysgard feel (as Arkon mentioned recently). I think that statement alone was an admission that some of the events up to that point had missed out on their ysgard feel. Jumping on that point now seems somewhat belated and redundant.
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
T'Holoth Shadowborn
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am

Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

I wouldn't really suggest Arkon or the other DMs are forgetting that. I'm willing to bet theres a lot of work going on behind the sceens that you are unaware of. When you buy a car you usually don't go to the factory and see how it's put together. You jump into it and go. have faith in the staff, many of whom are relitively new to the team.

The Celestial and Demon armies were introduced to Hala a long time ago. Over a year. Celestials or Demons are not native to the plane of hala your right. The Celestials are long time enemies of the demons. With the demons trying to get into hala, it only stands to reason IC wise, the celestials would come to hala too to try and stop them.

For a long time their were no real active groups in hala which created a bit of a void. Now were starting to see those guilds becomming more active and more involved in current plots.

As for trying to find help from the giants. If you reard up on ysgardian mytholoth i think you'll find that giants aren't too friendly.
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
micah ormane
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:21 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Post by micah ormane »

Evil is about two big things for me. It's either about presence, or subterfuge. How you go about doing either is up to you, and that's the true challenge for the player. Both of these can be accomplished without rampant murdering/griefing/cheesing, and you can still come out of it with whatever reputation you desire (The abberant hero, the cruel murderer, the untouchable and undetectable assassin, etc... etc...). You simply have to be willing to work at it, and constantly improve your RP. The more you try to be clever about your evilness, the more fun you and other players are going to have with it.

In a place like Ysgard, it makes sense that there should be few evil people around, and that they should have a rough time. This gives the evil, imho, an opportunity to truly shine. The CE bastard public murderer isn't going to survive long in a place with few laws that is known for the militantness and general goodness of the petitioners. He's going to have to adapt to survive, and be clever how he goes about serving himself. It's a real challenge, and a rich one to undertake.
T'Holoth Shadowborn
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am

Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

In my opinion, LE, NE and even CE types would simply kill mass murderers. Why? Self survival. Whats to stop the murderer from killing said character? Nothing. If hes going to kill children why wouldnt he kill and rob you (a LE guy) of everything you own?

LG would bring a murderer to court, CE would kill them to protect themselves.
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
Crystalactite
Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:16 am

Post by Crystalactite »

You just have to remember a lawful evil may help a lawful good character if there's a way to benefit from it. This is more often than not a case of removing competition -.^
Post Reply