Graphic Details

Talks that may or may not have anything to do with Hala or NWN

Moderator: Top Team

Grimm
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Maryland

Graphic Details

Post by Grimm »

Im addressing this here because It appears that some of the happenings of the demon army have offended some people oocly. So I am requesting future graphic details posted by the demon army have the words "((Graphic Details))" beside the title of the post, and suggesting it for other people that wish to post such things as "Killing babies."

Please if a DM thinks this is a poor idea, please say something.
Void Hamlet
Area Builder
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 4:32 am
Contact:

Post by Void Hamlet »

I have never thought someone would take offence or feel uncomfortable by such posts ...
On the other hand I am not a beacon of sanity. :roll:
IMHO the idea is good, Sam.

edit : Now that I read this and that - mmm yes, someone has gone picturesque ... :shock:
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and you have to make fortitude saves, you know it's a druid. -Cap'n Charlie
T'Holoth Shadowborn
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am

Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

I have never thought someone would take offence or feel uncomfortable by such posts ...
Some people say the same thing about IC rape. Some people don't see a problem with it, others are offended.

if the demon army is going to role play tourtuing and killing babies I would hope that every single "good or neutral" character would find this revolting and
a. attack demon army members if they have a degree of successfully beating them or
b. ignore them and NOT hang around with them chit chatting.
other wise thats pretty cheesy

I would also expect the city guards, who probably are against such thing as murdering and stringing up babies, to actively try and capture/jail/execute said criminals and ban them from inhabited settlements.

Playing evil is tough stuff. Playing over the top evil kinda limits other peoples role playing. It would be like "good guys" running around killing people who are evil, look evil, swear, dont follow a cities rules to the T. No?
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
e'Kieron
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:12 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Post by e'Kieron »

The action was sanctioned and it was meant to be so grotesquely evil that it had the effect it did.

Yes, this should give cause for more hate to be aimed at the Demons.

Yes, they are evil beyond compare and now even more so than when they had their God present.

Yes, Celestials are supposed to smite Fiends of all kind without mercy.

Yes, this action was sanctioned and handled appropriately.

Yes, it is revolting and disgusting, but it is not the same as IC rape. IC rape occurs when one character RP IC raping another PC. I have not/would not allow that.

This is an action of an evil PC attempting to become more evil by commiting such a sadistic act, there is no room for argument over the blackness of her heart.

-e'Kieron
"Every night has a day, even forever has to end... Sometimes." -Magus, Chronotrigger
ApproachingWinter
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:05 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Post by ApproachingWinter »

Murdering babies? Come on, I know people can find more creative ways to be evil than that.
“Divine being creates petting zoo. It gets out of hand.”
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)

Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"

Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
silverdragonams
Head DM
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:33 pm

Post by silverdragonams »

But, honestly...how much more evil can you get than that? Stringing up a kitty cat or a puppy? It wouldn't have the same effect.

When a person goes to prison for hurting, molesting, or murdering a child, that person generally has to be put under special protection from the other inmates. Not even evil people like other evil people who hurt children.

As gross, graphic and disgusting an image as it was (I am a mommy after all), I thought it did a good job of making the DA's position very clear. But I also think they need to find a place besides Mirtho Rest to hang out from now on :?
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
ApproachingWinter
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:05 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Post by ApproachingWinter »

Of course it works....but so does instituting the collapse of a city and taking it as your own playground, or spreading a devastating plague across a countryside, or taking a group of people (preferably family) putting them in a cage without food and seeing who turns on who first as food, or taking a child and raising them to kill their own parents, or framing someone for murder and so convincing them of it that they believe it and eventually turn themselves in for it always knowing somewhere in the back of their head that they did not do it but they're going to die anyway.


The possibilities are endless. Not....torture and kill a child.

(And yes, the punctuation in that paragraph was horrid.)
“Divine being creates petting zoo. It gets out of hand.”
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)

Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"

Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
Grimm
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Grimm »

This was not for the purpose of the demon army to display its power, it was Grimms test of one of his servants to see if they trully were demonic, because their had been doubts.

As to the other suggestions to show evil, sure their are many but not as many as you would think within the confines of Chaotic Evil, especially Demonic Chaotic Evil.

instituting the collapse of a city and taking it as your own playground
This is in itself a lawful evil action, as it would constitute the purpose of attacking the city would be for the advantage of controlling it. As compared to pillaging it then burning it.
taking a group of people (preferably family) putting them in a cage without food and seeing who turns on who first as food
And is that really many degrees better then what happened with the baby?
framing someone for murder and so convincing them of it that they believe it and eventually turn themselves in for it always knowing somewhere in the back of their head that they did not do it but they're going to die anyway.
Sounds more like a devils trickery to me, not very demonic.


((dont get me wrong, I think it is absolutely repulsive just the thought of killing children oocly. But Im trying to make things believable in Hala, therefore things like this are nececary (IMO). ))
Arkon
World Leader
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:28 pm
Location: Ironton, MO

Post by Arkon »

Well... let me put this bluntly...

You do actions like this, sanctioned or not, be prepared for the IC consequences....

and one thing I can tell you right now what you can expect... anyone affiliated with the Demon army better run like hell if they see Kay'lana. She will not ask questions anymore. You are dead if she sees you, plain and simple... This is a warning to you as players. There will be no griefing reports. Kay sees you, regardless of your level, Kay will kill you. So don't let her see you.

You thought it was hard being evil before... after actions like this... it will be much more so.

Now that being said, as with all CvC

GENTLEMANS AGREEMENT APPLIES.

From now on, if you are killed in CvC, you do NOT come back and start more trouble. You come back, get your body, and go away. (This only applies to being deathplaned, being knocked to bleeding is not the same) Also note, if you are in CvC and the battle ends and an enemy is nice neough to heal you for ooc reasons so you don't have to die.. .the battle is still over... Treat it as if you had DP'd

Failure to follow the agreement will tag you as an "outlaw" meaning the agreement does not apply to you and people can do what they want, include looting
Respect is Earned! Fear is Demanded!
ApproachingWinter
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:05 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Post by ApproachingWinter »

Grimm wrote:
instituting the collapse of a city and taking it as your own playground
This is in itself a lawful evil action, as it would constitute the purpose of attacking the city would be for the advantage of controlling it. As compared to pillaging it then burning it.

And no, not at all. The Drow as a race are CE but do such things all the time with other Drow cities.
taking a group of people (preferably family) putting them in a cage without food and seeing who turns on who first as food
And is that really many degrees better then what happened with the baby?

To me taking hot brands and slicing up an infant seems infinitely worse, perhaps that's just me.
framing someone for murder and so convincing them of it that they believe it and eventually turn themselves in for it always knowing somewhere in the back of their head that they did not do it but they're going to die anyway.
Sounds more like a devils trickery to me, not very demonic.

Agreed on this, this is indeed something a Baatezu would pull.
“Divine being creates petting zoo. It gets out of hand.”
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)

Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"

Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
Aiquandol
Team Member
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:30 pm

Post by Aiquandol »

*wonders when the baby oil is coming back out into the market*
VIpAcT
Veteran DM
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:37 pm
Location: (-4 GMT)
Contact:

Post by VIpAcT »

Aiquandol wrote:*wonders when the baby oil is coming back out into the market*
Stupid demon army... can't even get the simple things right! I said deliver it to CA... and I meant Celestial Aspirations not the army's tree.
*postpones baby oil monopoly*

edit: Oh yeah, and about the baby -- Its disturbing, yes. Probably falls under some peoples sense of morality, just like in game nudity (oh no, tassles!) Although, I would not recommend keeping it as a theme (the baby disfigurement that is).

I do question the reasoning behind just this act being warranted to make characters go 'blood hungry' for the demon characters. They have massacred entire cities and work for their masters to enslave souls of thousands (some babies too). While this cannot be classified easily in terms of our lives, it is probably crueler. Maybe they can work off that. :wink: But mainly, I believe that the games priority should be having fun, which demands bending your ways at times for the other person. To give this up and pwn level 1 demon army characters for no reason but this would not be so hot. Unless there is some sort of haven created or something.
Arkon
World Leader
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:28 pm
Location: Ironton, MO

Post by Arkon »

There are very IC reasons why kay will take this stance as most people who have played with her for any amount of time probably know. When it comes to children she has a major soft spot. That being said, do not think I will just walk up and smack them down. They will receive an in game warning via a tell first. I don't perticularly like CvC so I will give that player a chance to leave the area.

THIS ACT IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO GRIEF PEOPLE. IF PLAYERS FEEL YOU ARE GREIFING THEM, THEY WILL MAKE REPORTS, THEY WILL BE INVESTIGATED, AND THEY WILL BE PROSECUTED. This does include myself. CvC needs to be fun for everyone like Vip said. Those in the Demon Army who do not want to feel the wrath because of the actions of the demon army... better start doing some major RP and either clear your names from the act or get out of the demon army. However, if you choose to stay, remember that you will likely pay for the actions of your group. If you feel you are being griefed, by all means, please report it in it's entirety.

Killing someone because you see them in Mirtho (good to go). Killing them when you see them on a naked run (not good to go). Use common sense and no one will be griefed or accused of it.
Respect is Earned! Fear is Demanded!
Psye Shaar
Assistant Head DM
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:05 am
Location: Loitering.... with intent!

Post by Psye Shaar »

While i would agree that occurances like this should happen once in a while do the very nature of the people carrying them out, it may not be a good idea to make them regular happenings for both OOC and IC reasons...

OOC'ly, some people will find it too offensive or sickening to the point that they choose to stop coming to Hala at all, which nobody wants...

IC'ly, if this was to become a regular occurance, then the rest of Hala would simply hit the point that they've had enough of it and so wipe the demon army off the face of the plane and destroy every trace of them (weapons, armour and all pocessions - (why would they leave them, knowing full well those army members would come back and do it again)) in order to try and rid themselves of that particular evil. This could knock the PC's enough that they just wouldn't be worth playing anymore....

I'm obviously not saying that this is what would happen, just that it's a strong possibility...


As for how it's currently handled IC... that's down to how each person portrays their character... While Kay'Lana is in a position to be able to make a stand/attack against any member of the demon army, a lot of others are not and so would likely choose different methods to deal with them - thus all adding to the RP.

As an example, Tris would know that he wouldn't stand a chance against Grimm or certain other members of the demon army if on his own and so used his current condition to his advantage... quite an underhanded tactic, but can be great fun for RP....


As i stated, this is just my opinion, of which everyone has their own, so feel free to pick me up on anything you disagree with...
Arkon
World Leader
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:28 pm
Location: Ironton, MO

Post by Arkon »

nope, nothing to pick on. You made excellent points
Respect is Earned! Fear is Demanded!
Psye Shaar
Assistant Head DM
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:05 am
Location: Loitering.... with intent!

Post by Psye Shaar »

8)
Grimm
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Grimm »

IC'ly, if this was to become a regular occurance, then the rest of Hala would simply hit the point that they've had enough of it and so wipe the demon army off the face of the plane and destroy every trace of them (weapons, armour and all pocessions - (why would they leave them, knowing full well those army members would come back and do it again)) in order to try and rid themselves of that particular evil. This could knock the PC's enough that they just wouldn't be worth playing anymore....
I find this terribly upseting to read, I had hoped that the demon army would be seen as an organization that would induce exciting role playing. As to stripping people of weapons and stuff yea sure you could do it, but so could the DA when they killed good PC's as well. Once the battlefields are put in the DA will spend alot less time around Mirtho, the reason we spend our time their is to interact with good PC's. Thats the fun of being evil is interacting with the good, I hope we are not making it to the point it is not fun for people. That most certainly would not be my intention.
T'Holoth Shadowborn
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am

Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

There is not much 'good' players can do in terms of interacting with the demon army guild other than outright attacking them.

Theres is not much of a middle ground. I can easily see (or would hope to see) DMs giving good or neutral aligned players - chaotic and/or evil hits for sitting around a fire chatting up baby killers and cold blooded murderers.

Obviously a level 6 character isn't going to try and attack grimm. They can either run away or choose to hang around (where as they should suffer alignment hits). By camping out at the fire en force your limiting someones choices to a big extent.

Im looking forward to the battle grounds too. I enjoy CvC a lot and enjoy having living thinking enemies to fight instead of spawns or Dm controled monsters. I'm really glad everyone has been mature about the battls so far and theres no looting or greifing. I'm actually really surprised at that.

My only beef is I find it hard to grasp the concept of uber evil characters hanging around mirthos rest. I agree, your looking for a fight and to provoke a reaction however to me it would be like M'Check soldiers hanging around T'Nanshi out in the open expecting to be attacked.
I've senn nagrtch guards in mirthos rest before, and ive seen them arrest/ban a demon army member. Anytime a demon army member openly pops up in mirthos rest or nagrtch the guards should come running, no?

We really need to have some type of consiquences for dying. Not xp or equipment lost but something role played. Other wise this (project?) will simply turn into a big meelee with whichever side having the larger number beating on the weaker side in mirthos rest. Thats always fun but on it's own it's kinda tedious.
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
ApproachingWinter
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:05 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Post by ApproachingWinter »

With the constant focus on the DA vs CA that Hala seems to be based on (and I'm sure people will disagree, but please stop fooling yourselves) a way to get around this and fix everything at least to some degree would be to have the central bind point (where most gather, Hala = Mirtho, Abyss 404 = Monolith Trade Outpost, Elysia = Elf Gate) a completely neutral city. Say a place with heavy guards where each side is forbidden from starting anything and each side knows they will be safe to conduct trade or business in peace. I know the plane itself is a CG place but come on, if that really mattered would there be a piking temple and fortress for the Tanar'ri?
“Divine being creates petting zoo. It gets out of hand.”
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)

Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"

Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
Kat J
Squire of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:11 am

Post by Kat J »

Well I used to spend all my time in Mirthos to meet people because that is where people usually were, but now that the Demon army spends most their time there, I can't, and there isn't anywhere else I can meet people (and soloing is just boring) so there isn't anything left RP wise for me to do on Hala (unless I metagame and keep sending tells to people telling them I am somewhere so they can come to me, but that is bad).
ApproachingWinter
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:05 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Post by ApproachingWinter »

Well the above solution may work well, may even work as a border city to the battle grounds, and I wouldn't mind helping (key word "helping", can't take it all on my myself) building it if enough people expressed interest and the rest of the team agreed.
“Divine being creates petting zoo. It gets out of hand.”
- The Bible (summarised by John W. Mangrum)

Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Edgar Allan Poe (1809 - 1849), "Eleonora"

Characters: Kal Shadowhand, Streea Arisa.
Grimm
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Maryland

Post by Grimm »

Well, I dont want to be hurting peoples fun so therefore i will make it more rare that Grimm enters places like mirtho. I will encourage other people in the DA to do the same, Im flexible and am willing to make things work for the world.
-Sam
silverdragonams
Head DM
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:33 pm

Post by silverdragonams »

I'm all for the idea of a neutral ground.
My only beef is I find it hard to grasp the concept of uber evil characters hanging around mirthos rest. I agree, your looking for a fight and to provoke a reaction however to me it would be like M'Check soldiers hanging around T'Nanshi out in the open expecting to be attacked.
I've senn nagrtch guards in mirthos rest before, and ive seen them arrest/ban a demon army member. Anytime a demon army member openly pops up in mirthos rest or nagrtch the guards should come running, no
I also have to agree with Tholoth on this one. The whole Demon Army hanging around right next door to the Celestial Tree? Although I would think Celestial Paladins would come running rather than Nagritch guards.
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com
T'Holoth Shadowborn
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1325
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:41 am

Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

To help accomodate the DA we could start patroling more towards tel and the felmoran ruins and give both sides a chance (or maybe with a little help) ecounter and battle?
[i]Blessed is the mind too small for doubt[/i]
Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
VIpAcT
Veteran DM
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:37 pm
Location: (-4 GMT)
Contact:

Post by VIpAcT »

I will protest a little from a IC perspective. Mithro rest is where many of the long term 'good guys' have set down roots. It being neutral ground would be... just odd. Its like the headquarters for Ysgard good characters, not to mention its direct link to Celestia with the tree.

I'm all for a neutral city. Nagritch has always been lawful, and if they *cough* suddently have some extremely powerful lawful force oversee the city, that no side would bother thinking of doing anything against them, perhaps it can be done there. Like a bunch of golems, and um... more constructs! Anyone who gives hint of fighting gets chastised with metal.

As for the demon army, I would think that a haven like... a portal to a city in the lower planes could work. Like is done with Celestia. That way, they can sip blood and get shanked by their fellow abyssal friends, then visit hala for their pillaging.

*has some ideas for Mirtho and writes PM*
[size=75]<Sarmanoloth> I should have went Dirty Harry with the Solar
<Sarmanoloth> "See this? Its a Celestial crafted greatsword with three runes of enchanted and loaded with Holy Avenger Caliber magic. So I have to ask you a question? Do you feel lucky? Punk?" [/size]
Post Reply