CvC and the Gentlemans Agreement

Talks that may or may not have anything to do with Hala or NWN

Moderators: Arkon, Top Team, Arkon, Top Team, Arkon, Top Team, Arkon, Top Team, Arkon, Top Team, Arkon, Top Team

silverdragonams
Head DM
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:33 pm

CvC and the Gentlemans Agreement

Post by silverdragonams » Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:13 am

Thought it might be a good idea to start a new thread.
I was aware of this:

Arkon wrote:
Now that being said, as with all CvC

GENTLEMANS AGREEMENT APPLIES.

From now on, if you are killed in CvC, you do NOT come back and start more trouble. You come back, get your body, and go away. (This only applies to being deathplaned, being knocked to bleeding is not the same) Also note, if you are in CvC and the battle ends and an enemy is nice neough to heal you for ooc reasons so you don't have to die.. .the battle is still over... Treat it as if you had DP'd

Failure to follow the agreement will tag you as an "outlaw" meaning the agreement does not apply to you and people can do what they want, include looting

And no looting. But I know there is more to it, right? Like certain spells are frowned upon and using certain "uber" items, but I don't know the specifics. Anyone willing to fill me in?

Thanks!
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com

micah ormane
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:21 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Post by micah ormane » Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:12 am

More than anything, this is for keeping combat fair and smooth and determining when somebody is "out" or whether they can keep fighting.

As for spells...use good judgement. If it seems cheesy, it probably is. And if you think your using it might be ruining somebody else's fun, then you are probably right.

Example: Using timestop to unload offensive spells or dump attacks on an enemy. Just plain rude. You better hope I never see anybody doing this. Time stops for buffs? Good ...for escape? Good ...for one chain lightning? Nobody is going to really get mad ...for three wilts? You are subject to Wrath of Micah and will be properly smacked down.

This is more of a concern for CvC than for CvNPC, but use common sense people. If you have to dump 3 wilts in a timestop to have a chance against an opponent you should be running, not fighting.

I play a PC who is in an organization often involved in CvC. For looting, this is the policy we follow:

1) You kill somebody. Be polite and guard their corpse. (guarding is an option, but it is a courtesy that if you extend, will often be extended back to you)
1a) If you get killed, grab your stuff and withdrawl.

2) If they come back and try to kill you, kill them again. Take an item, and tell the player that it will be returned OOCly if they calm do not do it again.

3) If they come back a third time and try to kill you. Take what you want and keep it. At this point it is almost assuredly OOC...and if the opponent claims they are still IC by attacking naked for a third time they need to think twice about their actions.

Obviously, if 2) or 3) occurs and you die, the opponent is not playing by gentleman's rules, and you can feel free to come back and kick their ass exempt from (1a).

NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Post by NWDuneAuron » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:14 am

Also note that tactical elements of gentlemans agreement (not using timestop to spam offence, not using 6th bigbys, using harm only when utterly necessary, and then sparingly) also apply to DM spawns. People who do not respect this have been discovering that things can Harm/timestop/bigby them back.

The GentlemensAgreement as defined by mortzestus is thus:
Gentlemen's Agreement:

1. No looting of items except for consumables/replaceables: A weapon, a helm or a magical wand are examples of things that can't be looted under any circumstances. Things that can be looted include but are not limited to magical potions, healing kits, ammunition, crafting components, gems and scrolls.

2. Withdrawal upon defeat: If you are defeated in CvC by a member of the enemy army either in the warzone or in enemy lands you must leave the area and not come back until twenty four real time hours have passed. The only exception is if you must retrieve your gear after the incident that caused your death in the first case, in that circumstance you may come back, claim your equipment and leave as soon as possible. If you go back to the warzone or enemy lands before the 24h period has passed you won't be protected by the gentlemen's agreement regarding looting.

3. No Bigby's Forceful Hand: This is the only spell that at this time of writing has been considered "broken" for CvC purposes due to the difficulty to resist its effects. Virtually nobody can succeed in the STR check required to avoid it so it's been left out by both sides in the war. No other spells are forbidden by the gentlemen's agreement even though some might severely frown upon certain spells (Harm). Regardless, everything else can be used.
These rules are also relevant:
3. Set your enemies to dislike: This is always the responsibility of the attacker and can be done as soon as right after logging in or as late as a split second before the actual attack but the bottom line is that it must be done.

4. Don't assault the enemy capital city unless under DM supervision. Without a DM to put in realistic resistance, you'd be taking advantage of the NPCs' AI to make the attack easier than it should be. This applies to any sort of attack or criminal action, any applies to the Demon Temple, Mirtho Rest, Nagritch, Tel, etc.

5. No spies in the private boards of an opposing organization. A character can only spy in such a way if the DM sponsor of the spied guild knows about it. Further, all information spied must pass through this DM.

silverdragonams
Head DM
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:33 pm

Post by silverdragonams » Mon May 30, 2005 5:44 am

NWDuneAuron wrote:Also note that tactical elements of gentlemans agreement (not using timestop to spam offence, not using 6th bigbys, using harm only when utterly necessary, and then sparingly) also apply to DM spawns. People who do not respect this have been discovering that things can Harm/timestop/bigby them back.

The GentlemensAgreement as defined by mortzestus is thus:
Gentlemen's Agreement:

.....

3. No Bigby's Forceful Hand: This is the only spell that at this time of writing has been considered "broken" for CvC purposes due to the difficulty to resist its effects. Virtually nobody can succeed in the STR check required to avoid it so it's been left out by both sides in the war. No other spells are forbidden by the gentlemen's agreement even though some might severely frown upon certain spells (Harm). Regardless, everything else can be used.

......
This is pretty clear, but what about Bigy's Grasping Hand, and more specifically in non combat situations? I know it's frowned upon to use it it combat and I avoid it unless I think it's absolutly necessary. I usually use it because I want to stop and question someone.

But what about using it to walk away from a fight? Or to get away from someone who is threatening/annoying you?

or in another situation the other day, I used it to play a practical joke?

Am I being bad? Please be honest, because if so, I will change.

Also...I had heard that Bioware fixed this spell, did they? I have seen several people make their saves against it.
Characters:
[url=http://wiki.ysgard.org/index.php?title=Sarakin_Fyne]Sarakin Fyne[/url]

www.anotherworlddesign.etsy.com

Final Shinryuu
Newb of the Year: First Place
Posts: 337
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:37 am
Location: Real Life.

Post by Final Shinryuu » Mon May 30, 2005 8:18 am

Is there a save against it? If there is a reasonable save vs. the spell, I have no problem with it, but I have never seen any save or check rolled when I've been hit by these Bigby's spells.
My personal opinion is thus: If someone uses Bigby's on me, I'm probably not having fun, no matter the reason why it's used.
If someone uses it in a combat situation against me, I'll be real pissed. If they do it again, well, the fact is I'll remember it, and use cheap tactics back on them in the future, like stalking and killing them as they rest.

Aiquandol
Team Member
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:30 pm

Post by Aiquandol » Mon May 30, 2005 8:55 am

Yeah the bigbys is on a long list of things to be fixed. Sorry folks, but it's a ridiculous spell. It's near unsaveable.

Psye Shaar
Assistant Head DM
Posts: 2732
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:05 am
Location: Loitering.... with intent!

Post by Psye Shaar » Mon May 30, 2005 12:46 pm

If it's in a non-combat situation and IC'ly justified, then personally I can't see any harm in using it.

In some ways it's no different to going invisible around people who you know have no way of being able to see you. They may not like it and if decide to retaliate, but then it's their choice and I doubt very much anyone could IC'ly come up with a good reason to attack purely from something that's used as a deterant in that given situation.

As long as it's not used to be able to hurt/take advantage of someone or used to a point of excess, then there's really no problem with it...

I've seen it used a few times during times when people are just sat round the fire and each time it was IC'ly justified and no-one was ever in any danger or under threat. It either served a purpose or was quite amusing for everyone involved at the time

It's not like it lasts forever..... :roll:
[i]"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." [/i]
Blaise Pascal (1623 - 1662)

NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Post by NWDuneAuron » Mon May 30, 2005 1:11 pm

All of the Bigby's except Forceful Hand are legal in all situations. People may not like them, but you can use them in CvC. My advice is to use them as a last ditch measure to take someone out of a combat, much like a Finger of Death. As for spells in RP situations; go wild.

Also, some people are still breaking this rule:
4. Don't assault the enemy capital city unless under DM supervision. Without a DM to put in realistic resistance, you'd be taking advantage of the NPCs' AI to make the attack easier than it should be. This applies to any sort of attack or criminal action, any applies to the Demon Temple, Mirtho Rest, Nagritch, Tel, etc.
If you are caught by a DM annihilating NPCs who should be able to defend themselves in some way, shape of form (Cities DO have epic guards, kids), expect to lose items when you hit the floor. You've been warned often enough.

micah ormane
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:21 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Contact:

Post by micah ormane » Mon May 30, 2005 3:07 pm

Bigby's has several weaknesses, and against a strong warrior is quite saveable. Regardless though...keep this in mind: While it is legal to use it to pin somebody then beat the hell out of them, you can also use it as a CvC RP device. Pin somebody down, heckle them, then leave. Even blast them to near death, heckle them, than leave. It's not neccesary to kill everybody and everything at every CvC encounter. You can do verbal sparring too. Add some tension to the atmosphere =)

Asbendale
Knight of the Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:02 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by Asbendale » Mon May 30, 2005 7:20 pm

Hmmm...i will admit that i dont like this rule building one bit. As i see it in CvC combat all is possibel and all spells have to be allowed, what is the point in having a strong mage and then not be allowed to use his spells..i really dont see the point in that. Yes some spells are very dangeous to others, so is a fighter if he get close to mage. All ready some spells have been altered to take some of a mages power away...just look at flame weapon, its more or less useless whit its duration now and you almost never see a mage using it anymore, still the cleric can cast blackflame and its last long.

I dont think its fun sitting in a CvC battel and then casting a spell and then going "Damm i think that one was on the not allowed list......(checking forum)........yup". It will take the fun out of the game and be a pain in the butt for most players.

The ruel of no looting i totaly agree with aswell that if you lose you get your stuff and walk away.

Asbendale Silverblade

Arkon
World Leader
Posts: 2901
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:28 pm
Location: Ironton, MO

Post by Arkon » Mon May 30, 2005 9:21 pm

The only spell that is not allowed Via the Gentlemen's agreement is Bigsby's forceful Hand I believe. All others are allowed. The timestop assault spam, while being extremely cheesy because in PnP you can only perform healing and buffs while time stopped, it is not against the gentlemens agreement and you won't be labeled and outlaw for doing it if you need to. But please, as in all things, think about the other person involved... if you walk up on someone, instantly timestop and start spamming hellballs on them... are they having any fun? Probably not. Use common sense and niceties.

The reason for Bigsby's being on that list is because of the way biowhore coded it. Biowhore coded it wrong and coded it badly. The save is so rediculously high that i have seen level 40 fighters fail against it. That is why it was agreed that that spell would be disallowed as per this agreement.

If you don't like it, by all means, feel free to use it to your advantage.. but as stated before.. if you do, be prepared for the consequences. :)
Respect is Earned! Fear is Demanded!

Odin Hammersong
Honor Guard: Holy Church of Big Mouths
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Colorado
Contact:

Post by Odin Hammersong » Tue May 31, 2005 4:32 pm

I just wanted give (what I think is) a good example of the idea that you don't have to kill each other in CvC and that a wise use of some of these spells, a little heckling, and a lot of RP goes a lot farther in "enjoyment value" for all involved than just out right killing them.

Wyland, Lir'ana and Denegar were in the beholder caves. We were standing in a passageway discussing tactics, when out of nowhere Sarakin and Ril come running in. Sarakin dropped a Bigby's (not sure what level) on Lir and Denegar immediately. She basically ignored Wyland until he casted a Word of Faith on her(no effect). Only then did she drop a Bigby's on me. Sara then pulled out this funky wand....and summoned a big, stinky.....hole? :lol: Actually it was a sulphur geyser of some sort. Stinky, that's all Wyland remembers. :P

Anyway, so there we were, all held by Bigby's , with this big green fountain of stink right in the middle of us. Sara and Ril chuckled softly, said a few choice remarks, and then wandered off.

That's the sort of CvC that I really enjoy. Thanks Sara and Ril, that was fun. :) I mean, sure I got "pwned", but I'm not here to rack up CvC kills *shrugs*.

One thing I wanted to say: When I saw Sara dropping Bigby's on people, I *almost* ran up and dropped a Harm on her. Unlikely it would have had an effect, but if it did that whole situation would have never happened. As a player I'm willing to make the experience last a little longer, even if it means my char faces higher risk of getting smushed. It's worth it in the end, especially if the other folks feel the same.

*tosses 2 copper*

--Odin

Arkon
World Leader
Posts: 2901
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:28 pm
Location: Ironton, MO

Post by Arkon » Tue May 31, 2005 6:46 pm

Right. This is an example of a perfectly good use of Bigsby's. The part that is frowned on is the use of the bigsby's that holds you still, while the other guy beats you to a pulp.
Respect is Earned! Fear is Demanded!

NWDuneAuron
Honor Guard: Church of Pants
Posts: 1328
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:58 pm

Post by NWDuneAuron » Tue May 31, 2005 7:51 pm

Asbendale wrote:Hmmm...i will admit that i dont like this rule building one bit. As i see it in CvC combat all is possibel and all spells have to be allowed, what is the point in having a strong mage and then not be allowed to use his spells..i really dont see the point in that. Yes some spells are very dangeous to others, so is a fighter if he get close to mage. All ready some spells have been altered to take some of a mages power away...just look at flame weapon, its more or less useless whit its duration now and you almost never see a mage using it anymore, still the cleric can cast blackflame and its last long.

I dont think its fun sitting in a CvC battel and then casting a spell and then going "Damm i think that one was on the not allowed list......(checking forum)........yup". It will take the fun out of the game and be a pain in the butt for most players.

The ruel of no looting i totaly agree with aswell that if you lose you get your stuff and walk away.

Asbendale Silverblade
These agreements and rules are in place to keep the game fun for everyone involved. When someone stops having fun, things need to change to rectify that situation. It is not hard to remember not to use 6th level bigbys, and to use the other bigbys, Harm and Timestop sparingly.

Anniko
Knight of the Holy Church of Annoyance
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:20 am

Post by Anniko » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:39 am

Odin Hammersong wrote:I just wanted give (what I think is) a good example of the idea that you don't have to kill each other in CvC and that a wise use of some of these spells, a little heckling, and a lot of RP goes a lot farther in "enjoyment value" for all involved than just out right killing them.

Wyland, Lir'ana and Denegar were in the beholder caves. We were standing in a passageway discussing tactics, when out of nowhere Sarakin and Ril come running in. Sarakin dropped a Bigby's (not sure what level) on Lir and Denegar immediately. She basically ignored Wyland until he casted a Word of Faith on her(no effect). Only then did she drop a Bigby's on me. Sara then pulled out this funky wand....and summoned a big, stinky.....hole? :lol: Actually it was a sulphur geyser of some sort. Stinky, that's all Wyland remembers. :P

Anyway, so there we were, all held by Bigby's , with this big green fountain of stink right in the middle of us. Sara and Ril chuckled softly, said a few choice remarks, and then wandered off.

That's the sort of CvC that I really enjoy. Thanks Sara and Ril, that was fun. :) I mean, sure I got "pwned", but I'm not here to rack up CvC kills *shrugs*.

One thing I wanted to say: When I saw Sara dropping Bigby's on people, I *almost* ran up and dropped a Harm on her. Unlikely it would have had an effect, but if it did that whole situation would have never happened. As a player I'm willing to make the experience last a little longer, even if it means my char faces higher risk of getting smushed. It's worth it in the end, especially if the other folks feel the same.

*tosses 2 copper*

--Odin
Glad you enjoyed it
Ammenti Ril
Celestial Order, Phoenix Guards, Plane of Ysgard

Post Reply