Interesting Avlis discussion:

Talks that may or may not have anything to do with Hala or NWN

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Final Shinryuu
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Interesting Avlis discussion:

Post by Final Shinryuu »

Serenyddion, talking about Upholstery_Imp and myself:
"Wow, it's like the insanity of both of you somehow refracts off the other and is magnified in the process."
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Post by Psye Shaar »

I hate to say it, but it gets to me when I see a good aligned sorcerer who constantly talks about her friend, the red dragon, and summons it constantly to show off to people. And then she starts up one-sided idle chatter with it.
While i'll agree that the argument itself is interesting, the above comment is about as close as you can get to a personal attack. If it's a general point, keep it just that, general. Any who were there know exactly who you're talking about... :roll:

Certain summons are obviously against the creatures will, but others are more a calling than a summon. i.e planar binding -IMHO, with good alligned creatures at least, by their very nature, the creatures called would be willing to help.

As for Dragon Knight - is that not just picking up on a game mechanics restriction - Would it be possible in time that the type of Dragon called could become reflective of the casters allignment? Give it a chance to fail and that could be classed as the creature not wanting to help? Anyway - i'm going off on a tangent somewhat there - but my point is, as with the new gate spells, good alligned character's are always going to prefer to call on good alligned allies...

Well there's my two cents worth anyway.. *shrugs*
[i]"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." [/i]
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Post by Final Shinryuu »

The spell Dragon Knight, from the Epic Level Handbook, calls an adult Red Dragon.
When summoned, it is magically bound to the caster. If the caster is in obvious immenent danger, the dragon's task is to protect the caster. When the danger is gone, the binding is dismissed, and the dragon is returned to wherever it came from.
If there is no immediate danger present, the dragon and caster negotiate a service, and payment for such service. The dragon is then paid as it requested, then preforms the service. If the caster refuses to pay, the binding is released, and the angry dragon will usually try to eat the caster.
-Note: The dragon is being magically bound by the spell. It does not like being bound, and wants to kill the caster.

The Gate spell works the same way. Even when gating in creatures of the same alignment, they are going to be asking for payment. These are, for the most part, powerful outsiders with their own agendas. They do not want to be controlled and forced there by the caster of the spell, even if the caster is good aligned and the outsider is as well.

Some outsiders may go as far as to Gate a PC to them, and compel the PC to preform a service.
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Post by Psye Shaar »

This is once again working on presumptions locking a concept instead of allowing for any chance of roleplay or expansion.

I know of numerous people on Avlis who named the summons that they called and RP'd the idea that it was always the same one being called. In a world where it's possible to scry, i see no reason the caster wouldn't be able to call on the same creature every time and therefore, evil or not, build up a repore and level of respect/trust with them.

Just because they're evil doesn't mean they instinctively want to kill everything and everyone...

Also, because the summon can't state the case either way, is once again basing the argument on game restrictions. How would you know a summon isn't happy to be summoned at the prospect of getting a good fight against something if it's a creature that enjoys or finds honour in battle or even a creature that just likes a good fight...?

Every circumstance would be different, so if ask me, people should be allowed to RP it as they see fit...

To give a personal example, everytime Tris summons a hound archon, it's buffed and healed and treated pretty much the same way as every other member of the party he's with. He even chat's to it as he's walking sometimes... :)

Various spells and aspects have been altered to suit the worlds as they progress and grow, so as much as the hand book rules should be used as guidance, personally I don't believe they should be treated as the be all and end all of how things have to be.

As with everything, the final word will be that of the team, but I would urge you to at least keep an open mind to people trying to increase the level of RP by including certain summons/called creature within that scope. At least the ones that do have an intelligence level great enough to be able to make those kind of decisions.

Once again... thankyou for reading...
[i]"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." [/i]
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Post by Final Shinryuu »

Psye Shaar wrote:This is once again working on presumptions locking a concept instead of allowing for any chance of roleplay or expansion.

I know of numerous people on Avlis who named the summons that they called and RP'd the idea that it was always the same one being called. In a world where it's possible to scry, i see no reason the caster wouldn't be able to call on the same creature every time and therefore, evil or not, build up a repore and level of respect/trust with them.
To me this seems like speaking for the feelings, thoughts, and actions of NPC's. Only a DM can determine that.
Psye Shaar wrote: Just because they're evil doesn't mean they instinctively want to kill everything and everyone...
Of course not. Creatures bound by spells such as Gate and Dragon Knight do want to kill the being controlling them, however. That is stated in the spell descriptions.
Psye Shaar wrote: Also, because the summon can't state the case either way, is once again basing the argument on game restrictions. How would you know a summon isn't happy to be summoned at the prospect of getting a good fight against something if it's a creature that enjoys or finds honour in battle or even a creature that just likes a good fight...?
It is being taken aganst it's will from it's home and being magically forced into servitude.
Psye Shaar wrote: To give a personal example, everytime Tris summons a hound archon, it's buffed and healed and treated pretty much the same way as every other member of the party he's with. He even chat's to it as he's walking sometimes... :)
Players Handbook wrote: Planar Binding, Lesser
Conjuration (Calling) [see text]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text
Target: One elemental or outsider with 6 HD or less
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No and Yes; see text
Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.T
o create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual’s proper name in casting the spell.
The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + 1/2 your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you. A dimensional anchor cast on the creature prevents its escape via dimensional travel. You can also employ a calling diagram (see magic circle against evil) to make the trap more secure.
If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.
Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
You cast this spell. You summon a creature against it's will into a specially prepared trap, bind it, and threaten it with being stuck there for eternity until it agrees to preform a service to you.
Psye Shaar wrote: Various spells and aspects have been altered to suit the worlds as they progress and grow, so as much as the hand book rules should be used as guidance, personally I don't believe they should be treated as the be all and end all of how things have to be.

As with everything, the final word will be that of the team, but I would urge you to at least keep an open mind to people trying to increase the level of RP by including certain summons/called creature within that scope. At least the ones that do have an intelligence level great enough to be able to make those kind of decisions.
My point was to show that there is ongoing discussion in CoPaP on how closely these sort of spells should adhere to PnP. If the Hala team wishes to change these spells to comply more with PnP, they can. If they wish to leave them as they are and say "Things you summon are your friends", then they can. I leave it at that.
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Post by NWDuneAuron »

Using summons is, in effect, condoning slavery. Have a nice day!

And no that isn't an official response.
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Post by Psye Shaar »

*sighs* Every point i made was based on trying to look at least a little outside the original rules instead of taking them to the line with no chance of adaptation.

Anyway.. as we've both now said.. it's up to the team.
[i]"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction." [/i]
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Final Shinryuu
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Post by Final Shinryuu »

This is not how I see it. This thread was merely to point to an ongoing discussion, not imply that it should be one way or another. That is why in my original post, I posted nothing other than the link to the discussion.
I would like it to be a discussion here as well, not an ultimatium that it must be one way or another. It does not have to be up to the team yet.
So, everyone, feel free to comment on the matter.
Serenyddion, talking about Upholstery_Imp and myself:
"Wow, it's like the insanity of both of you somehow refracts off the other and is magnified in the process."
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Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

It's hard to comment on topics like this without sounding like an elietist.

I really enjoy watching Sarakins RP with her dragon summons. SHe's named it and interacts with it. Watching her it's obvious she puts a lot of effort into role playing a mage summoning a creature. I think she sets the standard for role playing in that regard.
I've seen lots of other people (myself included) just summon creatures to use as meat shields. Which is fine i guess but doesnt seem like a lot of effort is put into role playing. (A wizard casting a level 9 spell shouldnt be as easy as blowing your nose)
Whats even worse, ive seen people just kill their summons (and evil act IMHO) when they are done using them or when they are low on HP.
IMHO (my new acryonym fo rthe day) Treating a polyorphed character (say a spider) like a character but an NPC or especially a summons like a tool is bordering on metagaming or is just cheesy. Like, a bacon double cheese burger from burger king.

Rules are bent and changed. I'm not big on adhering strictly to a certain set of rules. D&D has changed quite a bit over the last while no? 1st addition rules, 2nd addition rules, 3rd edition and 3.5.
It's a changing thing.
I think it's great when the team of a world takes a rule and decides wether it works or not and changes it to suit their server. (Improvise adapt overcome hehe)
Certain summons are obviously against the creatures will, but others are more a calling than a summon. i.e planar binding -IMHO, with good alligned creatures at least, by their very nature, the creatures called would be willing to help.
Agreed 100%. I dont think its a big stretch of the imagination to think a hound archon would accept/be happy about being summoned to hala by the celestial army to attack demons along side PCs. DMs often let the CA call in reinforcements in dire situations (which was very kick ass and fit perfectly IC i think)
Im sure a priestess of lloth would find a spider summons friendly (or whatever the word is) to her.
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Final Shinryuu
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Post by Final Shinryuu »

Even so, however, I hardly believe the summoned creatures would stand for being called for frivolous purposes.
The hound archon may willingly come to help battle a great evil, but it would be rightly angered if it was bound and called just for a mage to show off to his friends.
More so with the dragon. If it is bound and called for a few minutes just so a powerful wizard can say "no, now THIS is a dragon", then there is something wrong.
Serenyddion, talking about Upholstery_Imp and myself:
"Wow, it's like the insanity of both of you somehow refracts off the other and is magnified in the process."
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Post by Jskee »

Final Shinryuu wrote:Even so, however, I hardly believe the summoned creatures would stand for being called for frivolous purposes.
If they are called against their will in the first place, that means they have no choice whether to come or not correct?

I mainly rp that my familiar is my pet, and anything I summon is mainly a meat shield..however I still do look after the summons just like a party member until it no longer serves my purpose.

I didn't read all of the above, or even the Avlis link for that matter. This is a GAME, if people are having fun RP'ING with their summons or familiars, then you should let them continue.

Just my naive two cents. :wink:
Final Shinryuu
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Post by Final Shinryuu »

Hehe, that's been covered. What I'm saying is that the summoned creatures do not like the fact that they are bound against their will, and that many people treat them as if the creatures do enjoy it.
Serenyddion, talking about Upholstery_Imp and myself:
"Wow, it's like the insanity of both of you somehow refracts off the other and is magnified in the process."
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Post by Jskee »

Final Shinryuu wrote:Hehe, that's been covered. What I'm saying is that the summoned creatures do not like the fact that they are bound against their will, and that many people treat them as if the creatures do enjoy it.
yeah, the last time I tried to hand my Balor a glass of milk and some cookies, I was visiting the Halls of Ysgard faster than NWDuneAuron could slap me for being an idiot. :shock:
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Post by Sable »

Whilst I'm all for RP with summons, within reason, certain things do grate after a while. I'm a great fan of the "it does what it says on the tin" school of thought, so if you summon a balor, you've got yourself a balor. Have fun and RP accordingly.
IMHO, If you summon a red dragon, RP you have summoned a red dragon, don't make excuses that it should be another colour and only the game engine limits you. Untill the team finds a work-a-round (should they wish to), you have a reds dragon. Nothing else. Saying otherwise is cheesing.
For me, RPing with a, for the example here, Red Dragon; does not include being overly friendly or familiar. Red Dragons are not nice creatures, they are arrogant and evil in the extreme, so RP should be in line with that. Maybe you shouldn't be cowed and overly scared of it, you did summon and bind it after all, but it sure as hell isn't going to be your best friend - even if you are evil, remember the arrogance...
For those that are of an alignment opposed to that of the creature summoned, my personal feeling is that the alignment of the summoner should be closely watched and adjusted accordingly. Excuses that the creature is the only one you can get at X level doesn't really hold any water with me, you choose your spells, you choose what you cast. If Undead were the best summons in a certain situation and a LG cleric kept using them, you'd expect something bad to happen. So why should things change at higher level?
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
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Post by silverdragonams »

I would like to point out a few things about "Tholoth" the red dragon that many of you may not be aware of.

Sara has been summoning a red dragon for a long long time. When she first started summoning him he attacked her on several occasions (via DM interference) and she was forced to subdue him every time.

Sara is a very powerful mage that could can not only easily defeat a red dragon, but can, and often does shapechange into one herself. Any red dragon would see that and respect (fear) that.

I always RP Sara feeding him and caring for his wounds. She treats him with respect, and always thanks him for whatever services he provides. At no point do I EVER RP his reaction to this treatment. I see their relationship as one based on the mutual respect two powerful creatures might develop for each other. And I see his reaction to Sara's treatment as one of stoic acceptance of his position.


As for RP a red dragon's alignment, I've seen several chromatic dragons RP'd on hala by DM's. Many have not only acted less than evil, they have been quite helpfull. I dont deny that Tholoth is probably evil, because thats what it says on his character sheet. But, in my opinion, saying all chromatics are evil is like saying all Drow are evil, all tieflings are evil, all minotaurs are evil...etc. Dragons, like any other intelligent race, will have exceptions to the rule.
I hate to say it, but it gets to me when I see a good aligned sorcerer who constantly talks about her friend, the red dragon, and summons it constantly to show off to people. And then she starts up one-sided idle chatter with it.
And yes, I do take this as a personal attack. If you have problems with my RP, please discuss it with me personally.
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Final Shinryuu
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Post by Final Shinryuu »

Please don't attempt to deevolve this thread into something base and crude.
If you have a problem with a post I made on the Avlis boards, please speak with the Avlis team about it.
I'm sorry that you take it as a personal attack, but if I had intended it specifically about your character, I would have said as much. This is behavior that I see often, from many characters.
If I had any serious problems with the way you played, I would send a e-mail to Arkon about it. As I have not done so, please stop seeing imagined threats in the shadows.
If this thread gets off-topic, I'll ask a DM to remove any far-errant posts. I would much rather this continue as a discussion about it, though. Both Spartan and Sable had great insights, and I appreciate that.
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Post by Aiquandol »

I'll ask a DM to remove any far-errant posts
What do you take us for? Censorship slaves?

Anyway, as we've found roleplaying out a summinings interaction with a caster makes for a far more enriching and interesting world. Rather than just "enslave, kill" when there's a relationship between the two everyone around generally enjoys it unless they're hellbent on making Hala abide by DnD standards. Hala is NOT pure DnD, nor are we trying to get close to the DnD rules. The DnD ruleset is what we base our world on, but it is not a governing factor in everything. The team of this world reserves all rights to throw away any aspect of the handbook that we deem as crap.

However, we have not made an official ruling on nature of summons. We've been leaving it up to the players to come up with a creative idea that makes sense. A ruling may or may not come later.

It's perfectly reasonable that Sarakin saved this dragons life and in paying off its debt became Sarakins companion (how Aiq came about maurice long before Sara had her dragon). Chaotic Evil also doesn't make them compleatly incompatible.

Dungeons and Dragons does not = the word of god around here. Please remember that.
Final Shinryuu
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Post by Final Shinryuu »

Yup, thank you, Aiquandol. That is why I have been trying to keep this as a discussion the entire time, but it has been getting out of hand. Several of the recent posts have been venturing close to attack-ish, and that's something I don't enjoy seeing.
I just wanted to gather in general how Hala players and team feel about these summoning spells, and show people how they are treated on Avlis, as well. I am not trying to make any personal accusations, or force anyone to play by a particular standard.
As for the censorship slave comment. :D Yup. I wuv you all.
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Post by Sable »

just to clarify (cos I'm feeling paraniod), my observations weren't based on any persons actions. They were in the most part hypothetical, influenced by observations on the game as a whole covering a number of different issues.
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
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Post by T'Holoth Shadowborn »

I dont deny that Tholoth is probably evil,
*slowly slides skull helmet on and heads off to convert, or destroy, non believers* :wink:

Sara brings up an excellent point where Evil dragons have often acted in very non-stereotypical ways. Perhaps thats due to hala's chaotic nature. The creatures dont act how they've often been portrayed as acting.

Arkon has did a good job in trying to convey the message that not all X races are evil.
Drow are generally evil but it's possible for them to be played otherwise.

Good to see you around aiquandol - Almara's word is alive and well :)
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Though I walk through the vally in the shadows of daemons, I shall fear nothing. For I am what the daemon fears.
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Post by micah ormane »

Aiquandol wrote:It's perfectly reasonable that Sarakin saved this dragons life and in paying off its debt became Sarakins companion (how Aiq came about maurice long before Sara had her dragon). Chaotic Evil also doesn't make them compleatly incompatible.

This is very valid...so long as it happened IC. Don't cheese it.

And remember...as for good, and evil and all that stuff in regards to summoning. There are qualifications under each and every alignment that let people slip and do things that could be questionable. It would be very valid, imho, for a LG sorcerer/wizard to summon and bind a CE dragon against its will. The dragon might be pissed, it might not be a friendly act, the dragon might be evil - but if said LGer is doing this action to maintain order, while promoting the greater good, then (to a small degree) it is alright for the Dragon to suffer.

However, if said LG sorcerer summoned the dragon just because they were out dungeon crawling...that's a bit more neutralish behavior. They are doing nothing other than forcing the dragon to help them on some pointless task.

Now...Paladins...nobody particular in mind *eyes Tholoth*...remember there are some very strict rules about being a paladin. Under NO circumstances could a paladin/sorcerer or paladin/XXX summon and force an evil being to serve it. Bam...instant fall. Even if you do it for the greater good (could be a fun thing to RP...).

Be creative with your RP. Enjoy your RP. We want you to do both these things. =) If something gets out of hand, we can make rules...but we'd rather everybody just be sensible and have fun.

Cheers
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Post by Arkon »

Also keep in mind that the summon you get is based on the game engine design. We are currently looking into ways to make Dragon Knight, and Gate, more alignment tuned so instead of a red, a good char my get a silver or a bronze or something.
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Sable
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Post by Sable »

micah ormane wrote:
Aiquandol wrote:It's perfectly reasonable that Sarakin saved this dragons life and in paying off its debt became Sarakins companion (how Aiq came about maurice long before Sara had her dragon). Chaotic Evil also doesn't make them compleatly incompatible.

This is very valid...so long as it happened IC. Don't milk derivative product it.

And remember...as for good, and evil and all that stuff in regards to summoning. There are qualifications under each and every alignment that let people slip and do things that could be questionable. It would be very valid, imho, for a LG sorcerer/wizard to summon and bind a CE dragon against its will. The dragon might be pissed, it might not be a friendly act, the dragon might be evil - but if said LGer is doing this action to maintain order, while promoting the greater good, then (to a small degree) it is alright for the Dragon to suffer.

However, if said LG sorcerer summoned the dragon just because they were out dungeon crawling...that's a bit more neutralish behavior. They are doing nothing other than forcing the dragon to help them on some pointless task.

Now...Paladins...nobody particular in mind *eyes Tholoth*...remember there are some very strict rules about being a paladin. Under NO circumstances could a paladin/sorcerer or paladin/XXX summon and force an evil being to serve it. Bam...instant fall. Even if you do it for the greater good (could be a fun thing to RP...).

Be creative with your RP. Enjoy your RP. We want you to do both these things. =) If something gets out of hand, we can make rules...but we'd rather everybody just be sensible and have fun.

Cheers
At the risk of venting a personal bug bear here and emphasising that this is again just my opinion:- Whilst I agree in theory with the paladin thing, it is only fair that what effects one characters alignment effects another. Paladins aren't a special form of LG that is different to the normal one everyone else can choose, it just that they suffer greatly if it ever changes. A Paladin must seek atonement for any chaotic or none good acts, but only "falls" if their alignment shifts from LG...
"Abash'd the Devil stood, And felt how awful goodness is, and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely” John Milton
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Post by Starslayer_D »

*grin* Amonien's red dragon is called Fido by her.... yes, she too has her own brand of arrogance. Poor dragon. At least itgets well feed most of the time.
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Post by Aiquandol »

The following is not an official ruling on the subject:

Also remember with Paladins you're not so much bound to cut and dry rules. It's a good guideline for newer players but a paladin is a servent of a LG god. This is so commonly forgotten. Law is just following a code of ethics laid down by the god. In Sulavan's case, if Almara's code mentions something about summoning dragons in certain circumstances then do it. However, you probably don't want to go there unless you're close with whomever DMs your god and can ask if it's okay first.

Remember, foremost, that a Paladin is a servant of a LG god, he/she cannot fall from grace if he/she is doing something within the limits and requirements of their god. It's our job to determine what those limits and requirements are.

The same thing goes for clerics or any other holy warriors. The alignment of the character represents the alignment of the god. In the realm of gods 'law' represents an orderly and fair method of action. Chaos represents an unorderly and whimsical fashion, and neutral is a bit of both. A paladin can easily walk into a bar a deck someone in the face in Nagritch if it's required by their god, regardless of weather it's against Nagritch's laws or not.
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