On being gith

deskmerc · Post by **deskmerc** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:11 am

I play Kex, and I'm a githyanki. and I thoroughly enjoy doing so.

That's pretty much all I play in this game, not because of any powergaming reasons but because of the backstory and the difficulty of playing a creature that is entirely outside what is normal to him. Anyone can take an elf or a human (or their bastard half breeds) and feel at home on almost any plane save an elemental one, but gith? In some places, they're feared more than ANSI standard drow (and rightly so, I might add)
and attacked on sight, because of this.

So, I just wanted to talk a little bit OOC as to what the hell Kex is thinking, because I don't want anyone thinking that I've just gone on a griefing spree, and assault characters that are way out of my fighting weight just for the fun of it.

When githyanki meet githzerai, they fight. The reasons for this aren't even obscure, they're common planar knowledge, in a sense. This has been bred into both races, essentially, fallout from the depredations of the illithid from long ago and the sundering of the two races when Zerthimon rebelled against Gith. The thing to remember is this: If a githyanki says that the 'zerai are bad and must be destroyed, he's right. When a githzerai says that the 'yanki are bad and must be destroyed, he's just as right. The only thing that will stop them from fighting is to introduce an illithid in plain sight, then they'll drop whatever it is they are doing and go kill the illithid, then call it a day to fight each other tomorrow.

Unfortunately, Hala's available illithid supply seems pretty low, so that's not a long term solution. There might be another, and that's the whole point of role play to find out if there is one...if you even want to, that is. Your characters may vary. Just keep in mind that Kex doesn't have any choice...he may even not feel like fighting anybody that day, but zerai or illithid, he fights, no matter who is in the way, and if he can't go through that 30 level whoever, then he'll just d-door around and take the shot anyway. He's willing to argue the point, even though he thinks you are crazy for not understanding any of this, but while the githzerai draws breath nearby, he's not going to listen. If he sees someone helping his hated, racial enemy, then he'll take it out on you too.

I'm playing the character as I see it. If someone gets in the game, chooses githzerai, hops out into Mirtho and then wonders why some githyanki person pulled out the pwnt, they have no business playing the character. (This doesn't apply to the two githzerai I've played, they know the score, and I'm glad they are there to give me all this trouble, along with all of you) Its an intense, personal experience that is hard to match among the other species, and I'll play it that way.

And if you want to know more about all this backstory, PM me and I'll tell you, or post more of it here...up to you. I just didn't want there to be any confusion over my character's intentions. Maybe I'm talkin' to the choir on this, but, better safe than sorry.

Akai · Post by **Akai** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:16 am

I appreciate being beaten up in subdual mode, for a change

shentaoba · Post by **shentaoba** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:23 am

It was very understandable to anyone that knows planescape lore. As i said in PM...excellent RP

please take care

*Edit* Btw..I was the Githzerai Zerth he attacked on sight...it was fine and we even talked in PM. Just FYI.

T'Holoth Shadowborn · Post by **T'Holoth Shadowborn** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:26 am

So, I just wanted to talk a little bit OOC as to what the hell Kex is thinking, because I don't want anyone thinking that I've just gone on a griefing spree, and assault characters that are way out of my fighting weight just for the fun of it.

We ran into this problem a while ago of sorts.
Zealot LG type people faced against low level CG types. (Celestials Vs Demons).
It felt crumby having a level 20 paladin pounding on a level 6 or 8 wizard who was caught murdering people etc. ICly you should smite them into tomorrow but OOCly you don't wanna greif someone.

I found a mix works. Attacking people when the chance presents itse;f but giving them a lot of room to withdraw from combat and also finding unique ways to battle it out. IE hanging a halfling over the side of one of the earth bergs leaving them to die. Cooperation between characters is paramount..
The two types of gith not attacking each other as stated in their description on sight would be ruining the atmosphere of the races BUT you can still overdo it. Sometimes common sense needs to override RPing your character, a level 30 good guy killing everyone who breaks the law, including gith for attacking other gith on sight, would ICly make sense but plain suck the fun out of the game.

Psye Shaar · Post by **Psye Shaar** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:22 pm

What you need to take into account here is that running up to a PC and killing them over and over and over reagrdless of how IC you believe it to be, is griefing.

There's no ifs or buts on this matter.

If you beat someone and also have to attack other PC's for defending them, then that's fair enough. Repeatedly killing the same PC time after time even if you've been beaten down youself can become incredibly tedious for both that PC and others involved and completely ruin the fun of the game for everyone else involved.

This is an RP server, but it's also supposed to be fun, so please make sure you take that into account and don't cross the line into griefing territory.

silverdragonams · Post by **silverdragonams** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:30 pm

Since you brought this up, I will be blunt. But please take this as constructive criticism.

First, I am assuming the meeting I witnessed between you and Athnook was the first. I saw a fully armored and helmed man attack a hooded man on sight. Unless the two of you had met before, you had no reason to know each other's race.

Second, I don't know if the two of you had talked or agreed on anything in tells, but most of us see repeatedly attacking a level one character as griefing. I don't care what race you play. Remember, you don't have to DP someone to "win".

Like Tholoth said above, this kind of CvC gets old, fast. Not just for the player who ends up taking a beating all the time either. It irritates the bystanders who were just trying to have a pleasant conversation, especially when they are inturrupted repeatedly.

((Crap Psye beat me to it))

Soul Hunter · Post by **Soul Hunter** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:51 pm

I don't know about here but most places I have played in it was griefing to kill more than once and also griefing to not end battle once you had lost. So basically while I think its no doubt good roleplay to attack and kill each other on sight once that battle is over the winner should crow about it and the loser should slink off into the darkness to wait another day.

More than once a day fighting gets boring quic,k not only for the players but for those that have to watch it.

Just my 2.000000013578 cents worth

edit for meaning

wyldhunt · Post by **wyldhunt** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:53 pm

I wouldn't see a problem with it as long as there were 'very' clear agreements via tells to make sure that it wasn't ruining the fun for either player and the results were RPed to the hilt. If Kex starts getting DP'd every time he hurts the 'zerai after a huge group decides to protect him, for instance, it may not be seen as a very wise thing to keep going to Mirtho to search for him. Not that a 'yanki would give up, but neither does the hatred make them stupid. Kex would realize that the edge of the berg is too close to chance making everyone hate him that much.

As far as interupting the bystanders pleasant chat... Well... They could ignore the fighting if they so chose... Otherwise, it a plane of battle, after all.

Mostly, there should definately be solid agreements on both sides via tells.

<Enter legal jargon about personal opinion only here>

ChukchiDog · Post by **ChukchiDog** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:40 pm

Just a quick point that I haven't seen made yet regarding this:

Playing their characters honestly is just as important to others as it is to you. Just as certainly as Kex must fight Githzerai, Gildan isn't going to stand there and watch it happen unless he understands and agrees with Kex's reasons.

For the record, I don't feel griefed and am not upset; looking forward to solving the whole Yanki vs. Zerai conflict thru RP (hmm...better buy some persuasion...)

Meredia · Post by **Meredia** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:31 pm

It makes me tempted to make a Githyanki or a Githzerai... I love them both so much.

Psye Shaar · Post by **Psye Shaar** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:45 pm

The point being made is that what you may feel a necessity in your RP and by that rational, fun, is not necessarily something that is fun for all.

This is why there are rules in place and limits set on such 'confrontations'. Not everything is fun for everyone and compromises must sometimes be met.

This server doesn't belong to any one player and should be treated as a community accordingly.

Lord Droke · Post by **Lord Droke** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:57 pm

I for one love to watch the gith fight. Im glad someone else has a little sense of adventure. That is one of the reasons why I like playing the bad guy. It so boring to just sit in Mirtho and have "pleasent conversation" or whatever. This after all isnt just a role playing game its an adventure rp game as well. Hell immagine playing PNP and all your chars do is sit at a fire and chat. That would be one boring session.
I think the big thing is to follow gentlemens rules for CVC. There have been many times that I have attacked someone with Vilmi and just left the area winner or no. The idea is after a CVC wait 24 hrs before you attack again. If that means you leave even though you won, fine. I dont really think a characters level should matter anymore as long as you do this.(hell we cant even get an idea of that anymore since diffaculty was taken out.) Killing someone repeatedly does suck, I've been there before on both ends and it sucks either way.

Akai · Post by **Akai** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:25 pm

Lord Droke wrote:Hell immagine playing PNP and all your chars do is sit at a fire and chat. That would be one boring session.

Different strokes... some of the best PnP sessions I've had have been just "sitting around and chatting"... I remember one impromptu jam session at the inn particularly..

(Which isn't to say the rest of the game isn't just as important... you need stuff to chat about, after all..

Lord Droke · Post by **Lord Droke** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:03 pm

you need stuff to chat about, after all..

Exactly

Slogth · Post by **Slogth** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:41 am

a level 30 good guy killing everyone who breaks the law, including gith for attacking other gith on sight, would ICly make sense

Does this make sense? Wouldn't that make the good guy just as bad as the evil guy who was comitting the crime? Brought to justice yes but pain of death for breaking a law? Hala has cities set up with laws and law enforcement so wouldn't it make more sense to uphold the law and bring the bad guy in. (And pluse that would make some real good RP. I know I got caught once robbing houses blind and I was arrested and eventually let go. I even remember Niko not allowed back in Nagritch until his fines where paid)

ApproachingWinter · Post by **ApproachingWinter** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:43 am

I'm going to have to agree with deskmerc on this one, gith despise one another to a degree that I don't think most people realise when they create the character. If you're running about as a gith and suddenly you're wtfbbqpwnd by a member of the other side of the Pronouncement of Two Skies don't complain to anyone.

Post by **Arkon** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:01 pm

Ok, in an effort to put an end to this discussion before it can get out of hand and feelings can get hurt i'm going to say something regarding it.

One: Read the Gentleman's Agreement on CvC

Two: IC actions: There is a very specific reason why the drow on Hala do not KoS everyone when they see them as Drow should do. There is also a reason why Drow are not KoS by everyone on the surface as they should be. It comes down to fun. Keep in mind that this game should be fun. Yes, bad things happen and you may not always have a good day, but the game should still be fun. If your IC actions are directly resulting in another person not having fun repeatedly, then there is a problem. So if you have a character that ICly has a reason to CvC a specific person all the time over and over, you better make absolutely sure that that person is ok with it. Otherwise do your best to avoid the person as much as possible.

This is meant for everyone, not just the ones who started this conversation.

And a little side note for everyone else. You see someone smoking down a level 1 character and you think it's griefing? File a report.
You are not the DMs of the server, do not take it upon yourself to correct the situation by doing the same back to them. There may be things you are not aware of. The level 1 may have agreed to the situation and you don't know that.

React as your character would react, but do not re-grief out of revenge for someone else.

PiCaKi© · Post by **PiCaKi©** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:14 pm

i wasnt on two days due personal matters and work (working as a barkeeper on weekends), so I'm pretty happy, that descmerc aka Kex has brought this up.

I am always okay with him, attacking me on sight. everytime, he or me logs on and someone of us is on, we "dislike" each others. thats pretty normal to us. we(our races) are arch enemies, and as long (he already pointed it out) no illithids appear and try to conquer the world of hala, the plane of Ysgard, we will be arch enemies.
thats why Nekk'en points this out often by saying, they have an eternity. they really have, as long as one of us gets perma-death (which I hope won't happen).

I already spoke with him, through tells that I'm alright with this situation and I dont mind being pwnd by him. You can call me masochistic if you wish. but him being there triples the fun I have on this server, it pushes my adrenaline to heights, and I thank him for doing so.

I wuv You man!

Slogth · Post by **Slogth** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:00 am

If you guys want Illithids I could always take you to the Illithid outpost, if you trust a So'Riatin wich OOC I wouldn't.

I agree so much with Arkon the KoS doesn't always work so you just get a little more creative with it. Like the other night there was a lot of lower level characters I was running into and didn't want to kill any because it just wouldn't be nice. So I stalked them and when the opportunity rose with one PC who was fighting the snakes in the swamp I casted a dispel magic on them to get rid of his buffs, threw up a darkness, ran and hid. I always stick around to make sure they don't die and if they do a OOC heal is always nice so they don't have to take the dreaded death run! I must say playing an Evil Lloth Drow has been not only interesting but alot of fun! I hope everyone else enjoys their encounters with Vildur, or Elrond, or whomever I maybe disguised as at the time.

Mephistophelina · Post by **Mephistophelina** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:47 am

PiCaKi© wrote:I already spoke with him, through tells that I'm alright with this situation and I dont mind being pwnd by him. You can call me masochistic if you wish. but him being there triples the fun I have on this server, it pushes my adrenaline to heights, and I thank him for doing so.

I wuv You man!

Woot on you!

Other than AW, Deskmerc knows more about Githyanki than is probably healthy, and the two of them ran some k-spiff ossum plots on Abyss which did nothing but add to the atmosphere. Yeah, I'm biased cuz he's mah buddy, but even so, Deskmerc knows what he is doing. I will be happy to share any of my canon books on this to anyone who asks which will back up all of this. Just send a PM. Or ask AW, who can explain in detail.

PiCaKi sent me a tell about this when he first popped on specifically to get hold of Deskmerc, who was supine on my couch at the time, and so I leaned out of my door and yelled: "Hey! Deskmerc! This guy here says he's made a 'zerai and wants to know what your take on it is!"

Deskmerc: "Zerai? Pwn on sight!"

Me: "He wants to PM you about it!"

Deskmerc: "Kewl! Give 'im my MSN!"

And then they worked it all out betwixt themselves. I know Deskmerc (well enough that he camps on my couch!), and if it ever came down to where anyone felt griefed and said something about it, Deskmerc would go out of his way to make sure that wrongs were righted and fun resumed. This is fun for both of them. Some people like having archenemies that challenge them and make their heart go all skittery when they log on. I know I felt that way about Vilmi and Grimm -- enough to where I sent Grimm a pound of dark chocolate brownies from scratch just to ensure an extra skeery pwning! I would be upset if someone OOCly interfered with that because they thought that I was being griefed! I paid good chocolate for my enemy!

So all I'm saying is that some folks actually like the fictional tension of nemeses, being as how this is a plane of battle and dark challenges can be way wicked fun, and as long as that's all above board and handled between the players involved, I really don't see how it's fun to say no for OOC reasons.

Grok?

- M.

T'Holoth Shadowborn · Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:20 am

Hey Slogth, long time no talk buddy

Does this make sense? Wouldn't that make the good guy just as bad as the evil guy who was comitting the crime? Brought to justice yes but pain of death for breaking a law? Hala has cities set up with laws and law enforcement so wouldn't it make more sense to uphold the law and bring the bad guy in. (And pluse that would make some real good RP. I know I got caught once robbing houses blind and I was arrested and eventually let go. I even remember Niko not allowed back in Nagritch until his fines where paid)

To answer your question I'm not sure if it makes sense, I don't really catch your point of view?

What I was meaning to say is that a chaotic evil beserker could probably argue that it's in character for himto attack EVERYONE he comes across. BUT, that get sold fast. While its in character it's still approaching greifing right? It would be the same with a lawful good guy pounding on everyone who breaks thelaws. Sure it's in character for him but it's also not very creative. I'm saying when it reaches the point of getting old it's good to find creative ways to continue playing how you envision your character to be YET finding creative ways in doing so so you don't start ruining someone elses fun. That make more sense than my previous post?

Psye Shaar · Post by **Psye Shaar** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:25 pm

Mephistophelina wrote:
PiCaKi© wrote:I already spoke with him, through tells that I'm alright with this situation and I dont mind being pwnd by him. You can call me masochistic if you wish. but him being there triples the fun I have on this server, it pushes my adrenaline to heights, and I thank him for doing so.

I wuv You man!
Woot on you!

Other than AW, Deskmerc knows more about Githyanki than is probably healthy, and the two of them ran some k-spiff ossum plots on Abyss which did nothing but add to the atmosphere. Yeah, I'm biased cuz he's mah buddy, but even so, Deskmerc knows what he is doing. I will be happy to share any of my canon books on this to anyone who asks which will back up all of this. Just send a PM. Or ask AW, who can explain in detail.

PiCaKi sent me a tell about this when he first popped on specifically to get hold of Deskmerc, who was supine on my couch at the time, and so I leaned out of my door and yelled: "Hey! Deskmerc! This guy here says he's made a 'zerai and wants to know what your take on it is!"

Deskmerc: "Zerai? Pwn on sight!"

Me: "He wants to PM you about it!"

Deskmerc: "Kewl! Give 'im my MSN!"

And then they worked it all out betwixt themselves. I know Deskmerc (well enough that he camps on my couch!), and if it ever came down to where anyone felt griefed and said something about it, Deskmerc would go out of his way to make sure that wrongs were righted and fun resumed. This is fun for both of them. Some people like having archenemies that challenge them and make their heart go all skittery when they log on. I know I felt that way about Vilmi and Grimm -- enough to where I sent Grimm a pound of dark chocolate brownies from scratch just to ensure an extra skeery pwning! I would be upset if someone OOCly interfered with that because they thought that I was being griefed! I paid good chocolate for my enemy!

So all I'm saying is that some folks actually like the fictional tension of nemeses, being as how this is a plane of battle and dark challenges can be way wicked fun, and as long as that's all above board and handled between the players involved, I really don't see how it's fun to say no for OOC reasons.

Grok?

- M.

That the two of them have got it all sorted between themselves is great and something that could have prevented numerous problems in the past with various people in various other situations. So thumbs up there.

I think the other main point being addressed was that the two types of gith are not the only ones involved here. While they may be happy to beat seven shades of shit out of each other from sunrise to sunset, as long as they're doing so in public areas where there are almost always other parties present, then that's when the distinction needs to be made as to whether what's transpiring is actually fun anymore.

By all means throw everything at each other once or twice, but then have the decency to withdraw as the smug victor or sore loser (whichever party) depending on the outcome and affiliations to those around.

Trinity · Post by **Trinity** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:42 pm

Also...remember your fellow gammers,even tho you may enjoy it, not everyone wishes to be involved in a CvC situation day in and day out..even if it doesnt involve them directly,it forces some pc's to get involved.So while you have this sorted between you both,lets not make it repetetive,all the time in known public area's were it is to be somewhat peaceful.You may just find yourselves both getting a smackdown by some higher lvl pc's that may tire of such behavior in certain areas.

deskmerc · Post by **deskmerc** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:54 pm

By all means throw everything at each other once or twice, but then have the decency to withdraw as the smug victor or sore loser (whichever party) depending on the outcome and affiliations to those around.

Ah, but you see, that's exactly what isn't happening to some extent.

Instance one: Kex wanders into Mirtho. He's heard rumors of some crazy 'zerai, but that can't really be, because no fool, HEY, WHAT'S THAT?! He sees some one dressed up, hooded, but openly wearing illithid skulls. GET HIM! What the heck do you expect? He's githyanki! Do you expect him to walk up and start a conversation? "Excuse me, but you appear to be wearing a HATED RACIAL ENEMY on your armor, and you appear to be a HATED RACIAL ENEMY, mind if we talk this over?"

No, there's no discussion here. Attack. And hey, the battle only concluded after the two of us left Mirtho, because everyone kept healing the zerai. As far as Kex is concerned, everyone who was "defending Mirtho Rest's moral principles of no fighting here" was deliberately defending the zerai, so everyone involved became targets as well.

Instance Two: Same Zerai, same results, except he got the jump on Kex first. Battle ensues, violence occurs, dire warnings exchanged.

Instance Three: A brand new zerai walks right out of the Inn. Kex can't believe his eyes! He waits to see if anyone notices, buffs, then screams and leaps. Everyone freaks out, of course, and again, move to stop Kex.

I would like to point out that every time, Kex has always gone after the zerai first. Its only when someone gets in the way does he attack that person. (Of course, some have been so obnoxious about it, Kex is gonna take it out on them too, should he catch you wandering loose. Or worse.)

Now, in this last instance, Kex actually got kilt. In all the other times, when his HP went negative (which was only once), normally, this would stop the fight. However, I have regeneration, which will pop me right back up, I ain't dead, just pretty stunned (at least, when full damage is running) Regeneration can be overcome by the usual means, so this doesn't mean I'm invulnerable or anything. So Elly killed Kex fair and square (barely) and I left Mirtho. If I hadn't have been killed, we'd still be running around in circles in there until I finally killed the zerai.

The deliniations are clear: I don't kill people at random. If you get in the way, I work around you if I can, if you are obnoxious about it, I pwn and continue, if you are a higher level, I'll bamf around you and take the shot. If there are too many of you, I'll just wait until you leave an opening, then take the shot. (Advanced marksmanship, baby, I know all about taking the shot)

But what am I to do when folks are running around healing and raising? They run in, yelling "Hey! Don't fight here!' and heal folks I'm trying to shove aside? Ignore it? Think its all fun and dandy? I'm a freakin' neutral evil githyanki with spider phobias, I don't break out the Fluffy Pillow +1 just some do gooder whines that there is no fighting in Mirtho. I see you helping a hated enemy, so if I am going to kill said hated enemy, I gotta take care of the misguided person who is healing. Kex has tried talk, but that doesn't work, so the sword will have to do.

To those who say "griefing!" please note, that last fight where I was stronger than most everyone else, I had subdual on. If I had gone full bore on everyone, there would have been at least four corpses around that campfire, and an entirely different ending to our little morality tale. I didn't use fully lethal force, and as a result, this dragged on for an hour, and I got myself killed as a result, and I left Mirtho per those CvC rules and haven't been back. (Yet, I've no net access right now anyway). I'm playing by those established rules. 23 hours of the day I'm not even on, and 90% of that last hour isn't me coming into Mirtho and starting a fight. Also, I may get my ass handed to me, but if I'm not dead, and I limp out of the area, I'm coming back for another try at the target if I know he's there. The fight's over if you kill me, or convince me not to fight at all. Nobody has done a good job at the second option at all, and only once has the first been successful. (Kex also scoffs at accusations of cowardice...all this high octane hasn't stopped him from hitting the target. Mission first! There are no other githyanki here, tactics change accordingly)

Anyway, I'll accept any DM ruling on this matter.

deskmerc · Post by **deskmerc** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:30 pm

Also...remember your fellow gammers,even tho you may enjoy it, not everyone wishes to be involved in a CvC situation day in and day out..even if it doesnt involve them directly,it forces some pc's to get involved.So while you have this sorted between you both,lets not make it repetetive,all the time in known public area's were it is to be somewhat peaceful.You may just find yourselves both getting a smackdown by some higher lvl pc's that may tire of such behavior in certain areas.

I have absolutely no problem with that. However, a case needs to be made IC wise, just saying "Hey, no fighting here" can't quite cut it, especially when you are dealing with a species that recognizes no authority at all.

Kex has acted with extraordinary restraint since arriving to this plane, and not taken serious offense to some considerable insults tossed his way, mostly because of Y'lissana explaining things to him. However, when it comes to githzerai and illithid, acting with as much restraint would be like expecting the red dragons to not use breath weapons. If you want the gith races to not fight, provide the IC reasons. So far, the only reasons to exclude Mirtho have been naked force...Kex can respect that, but he can also work around it and take the consequences later. Is not dealing with that also a part of role play? The multiverse is not warm and fuzzy by default.