Question psion powers

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

Just had 2 questions on psionic powers.


1.ESP
Description states

Extrasensory perception, or ESP, allows a psionicist to read someone else’s mind. The character can only perceive surface thoughts, but this gives him a number of advantages in interpersonal dealings. The psionicist gains a 10 point bonus to his persuade, bluff, and intimidate skills for the duration.

Now I know we (copap?) came up with the rule that you cannot "read someones mind" because clearly the capability of abuse is all too available. No one is going to disagree with that.
Here's what I'm wondering

Can we, however, read an NPCs mind with this power? (obviously with the aid of DMs used in events and subject to failure at DMs disgression)

And,
Could we, with the other players concent, "percieve surface thoughts" such as perhaps emotions.

a1)"My character is attempting to use ESP on you, do I ICly sense anything?"
b1)"huh? no"

a2)"My character is attempting to use ESP on you, do I ICly sense anything?"
b2) " humm, my character seems really distrusting towards the person beside him"

Often when using psion powers (dominate, attraction for example) the other players are usually happy to help out and RP along (so long as one is being respectful and not a jerk about it) the only thing is often they just don't know how their suposed to act ICly. Once told like they play along.

If someone doesn't wanna play along, which has happened ie cast dominate and someone completly ignores it, well it just happens.



2. Telepathy
Characters are starting to use their languages more and more. Celestials, Drow, Thieves cant etc.. Adds a LOT if depth to the game and interactions. Really makes characters race and profession come out.

Can psions use telepathy to send messages ICly?
Paying close care not to abuse it such as were going to the minotaur caves, come along.
It would be more used for interactions among groups or say if people get split up in a cave.
The character could send a thought or two but can't read someones mind. In order to hear something back the other psion must ICly send a message back.
Only psions could send message.
DMs could rule that either
a)anyone can recieve them or
b)only other psions can recieve them.
Can also say maybe that only psions with the telepathic power contact can send messages as a condition.

Staff, players?

[silverdragonams]

2. Telepathy
Characters are starting to use their languages more and more. Celestials, Drow, Thieves cant etc..........

A "Telepathy" class language token granted to a psion on taking that power would be neat.

[Druid523]

I've used ESP to send telepathic messages to players (and DM-controlled NPCs) before. It seems to me to be a cooler version of whispering to someone.

I'll write more later! Just wanted to say something in the meantime.

[ace4lyyfe]

The Telepathy would be too open to abuse and metagaming I think, and it would also be too much of a advantage to psions to be able to send pms across the world, no matter how controlled or moderated it was.

I've experienced the rp'ing side of ESP before, and in my personal opinion, it's just one big cheesing oppertunity. If I remember correctly, there's no save, no resisting, all a psion has to do is use the power and then the victim is forced to rp along, and if for some reason the victim thinks that their character either 1) resisted the effect, or 2) has no surface thoughts at the moment, then they're accused of being a poor rp'er.

Also, both of these powers requires a good amount of pms in order to rp, and that would open a whole new angle of confusion. However, using these powers on NPCs seems a more fitting use. And SD's idea of having a psion token would still let psions talk to each other at short distances.

[Druid523]

I think that's a bit too negative, to be honest. When manifesting the power to contact someone telepathically (and it's always been using line-of-sight, unless a DM had said otherwise), I contact the person via a tell that says something along the lines of: *you feel a mental knock at your mind's door; do you let it in?*

Assuming the other person is eager to participate, this gives me a great opportunity to emote thoughts/emotions/etc. in a very unique way. If I am contacting another psion, I still emote thoughts/emotions/etc., but I also use actual dialog/speech, essentially speaking in complete sentences to someone else who is mentally adept. When contacting a non-psion, I stick to just the emotes: flashing images, strong senses of anger/confusion/awe/etc., the feeling that there is a foreign presence within your mind, and more.

No one is forced to rp along, which is why I give them the option right away to "open the door" or not, regardless of whether they are psion or non-psion. If they don't wish to roleplay along, why would they be accused of being a poor roleplayer? Are people who don't wish to participate in an event, CvC, post on the forum regularly, etc. looked down upon? Not by me anyway.

As with almost anything, respect for the other player allows more freedom for roleplaying and more opportunities to use one's abilities in unique and interesting (i.e., fun!) ways.

There are already rules against abuse and metagaming. Do people still send tells to other players letting them know where they are or what's going on? I'm sure of it. Is this allowed? No. I don't think allowing telepathic communication will affect the frequency with which players send such tells to one another in-game. If anything, at least there will be a reasonable IC reason for it. As I said above, though, I've only used this with line-of-sight, unless a DM allowed otherwise. I don't see why a majority of Hala's players can't similarly use common sense with this. Most of our players are good people who respect the rules and contribute to good roleplaying. Restricting things will only take away another good opportunity from the players.

[ace4lyyfe]

My apologies for seeming too negative, I know that whatever is done, you at least will do it in a well rp'd way.

I contact the person via a tell that says something along the lines of: *you feel a mental knock at your mind's door; do you let it in?*

Well, I would have to say that would be an extremely better way of doing it than the other ways I've seen it be done. However, I think your way of doing it is simply your way of doing it, I doubt many other psions do or would do it in that manner.

No one is forced to rp along, which is why I give them the option right away to "open the door" or not, regardless of whether they are psion or non-psion. If they don't wish to roleplay along, why would they be accused of being a poor roleplayer? Are people who don't wish to participate in an event, CvC, post on the forum regularly, etc. looked down upon? Not by me anyway.

Same thing, you don't look down on other people for not allowing Scel to read their minds, but I think you're one of the few that would. Imagine someone finally cornering a drow.

Human: [Tell] *you feel something like fingers slip into your head*

Drow: [Tell] *you sense that he wants to kill you*

Human: [Tell] //uh, wouldn't the location of drow city be in his surface thoughts? I mean seriously, he was obviously heading home, so it must have been on his mind//

Drow: [Tell] //errr... nope!//

Human: [Tell] //okay, if thats how you want to play.//

There are already rules against abuse and metagaming. Do people still send tells to other players letting them know where they are or what's going on? I'm sure of it. Is this allowed? No. I don't think allowing telepathic communication will affect the frequency with which players send such tells to one another in-game.

You might be right that the number of tells would not increase, but this would allow psions to send tells to the extreme. Also if you think about it, a psion is reaching out with his mind across how large of a distance, past how many hundreds of individuals trying to find one mind to talk to. Wouldn't you think there would be too many minds for him to locate a single person?

I don't see why a majority of Hala's players can't similarly use common sense with this. Most of our players are good people who respect the rules and contribute to good roleplaying. Restricting things will only take away another good opportunity from the players.

If everyone played with common sense and integrity, there would be no need for server rules, and yet we have server rules.

[Dengar]

As I looked through the Psionic powers (I am about to go Psion with Dimwick) There really is no power that sends comunication, and recives it. Dimwick, A Ghostwise Halfling, Has the ability to Speak to someone, using his mind, but it's, as in Telepathy, a one way street. Now, The way I had it explained to me, ((which may be wrong, so don't quote me, and say it's law!)) was that my ability, wasn't quite like the psion version, A psion, in effect forces his thoughts in, where as my ability, you can ignore, without a high will roll, or what that would call for. (I have to ask Permission) **for the sake of Arguement, what I always do**

(Dimwick: *Tell* You here a voice in your head, do you listen** (type what I will, give them the choice of hearing it in thier head, if they try to respond outside of actually speaking allowed, I ignore it.) (Added note, Telepathy, as far as I know, only works with in eyesite, as I think any power, or wizards spell would... *Scrying not included*)

Now, I could be full of crap here, and just misunderstood what I was told... which the more I play this game, the more that fact comes to light.

(T'Holoth wrote)

a1)"My character is attempting to use ESP on you, do I ICly sense anything?"
b1)"huh? no"

a2)"My character is attempting to use ESP on you, do I ICly sense anything?"
b2) " humm, my character seems really distrusting towards the person beside him"

Good questions, but, those would be more basic sense interpertation, I have had DM's tell me if something is out of sorts... so why would PSP have to be wasted to acknoledge, something an average inteligent rouge could see?

I only hope my input is worth it in the end.

Hope you all get the answers that are true and right.

[Akai]

If ESP were to allow this sort of thought theft or communication, would protection vs. alignment, which defends against mind-affecting magic, prevent it? And if so, vs. psions of all alignments, or the alignment specifically being defended against?

[Xanthalas]

Sceluscio and I have dealt with this between each other. Having such a high intellectual wizard, and other culture as well. I doubt much can be garnered,

Perhaps we should agree on a surface thought?

I've always interpeted this as very general, Something that could probably be picked up by the very astute, and intuitive.

Anger,
Resentment,
Nervousness.

Locations, Places, Actions, Intentions, those strike me as centrally nminded. Focused.

Even if I have that backwards. I find it hard to believe anything would be picked up other then something general and vague.

The power doesn't fit preconcieved notion of the actual phenomena (Whether you believe it exists is not relavent.) So I've always been a bit confused on how to play it. But generally speaking. Consent is probably the bigger word. I don't really like it in the most part, But I also care to play fair, so I always try to send something honest, but vague.

"*You sense great amounts of pain*"
Sure, I might be in trouble.
Maybe it's some really bad gas.

Details should not be quite evident.

The surface thought I would think would be "Ouch"
So that's all I give them.

*Shrugs* Seems to have worked so far.

[Akai]

...Imagine someone finally cornering a drow.

Human: [Tell] *you feel something like fingers slip into your head*

Drow:...

Drow: "Vel'bol l' uoi'nota???"

A person's surface thoughts would be in his native language, would they not? Unless he was making a deliberate effort to frame words in some other language.

[Zombie]

My thoughts (te he... )

ESP
Surface thoughts would be in the characters native language, I know mine are, however ESP should be able to detect a characters general state of feeling (happy, angry, hungry etc).
I would also give someone a 'bonus' if they used esp and made a bluff/persuade/intimidate check against me, since they can get a general sence of how I feel.
Protection from evil should stop esp as it is a mind effect.

Telepathy
My understanding of this is that you can concentrate on someone you know and send them a message if they are on the same plane as you. (house rules my not agree) They CAN NOT answer back unless they are also telepathic. I wouldnt have a problem with someone sending a tell to someone else on the server, as long as both sender and receiver are on the same plane.
Protection from evil should block this as well.

[Dengar]

But going back to what I said, and what I know of my ability, it is a character in sight, and technically willing... Hence why I send the Tell: You hear a voice, if you listen: I think I am supposed to ask people, if I can, but I would think this is more effective for the RP, most of the time, it is someone I know IC, and know they can either use it, or not IC.


I try to keep it realistic, if you are running past me, you may hear a word or less, may hear a fraction of a word, and then nothing... in that case, I just don't bother.
So far, I have not delved too deep into it, and only asked when I made the character, what the ability does...

Again, these are not answers, just opinions.

[zsenf]

From the Avlis definition of the powers, and telepathy in general, not that Hala has to go along with it of course:

There's no telepathic communication. THe power ESP is sensing a small amount of what everyone else around you is thinking, giving you a bonus to your interpersonal skills (persuade, bluff, intimidate, but not taunt for some reason) THe power Dominate lets you replace the target's thoughts with your own, giving you control. You can't get info out of the target, unless you RP asking it questions, in which case it has to answer. As per PnP D&D rules, telepathy of any sort is independent of language, as the brain thinks in terms of ideas first, and language second. Any RL psych major can tell you this. Hope this helps add some realism

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

Gonna be a bit of a long post, sorry in advance.

Psions also help other characters with their own role playing and character backround/history.

Just one of many examples.
Last night in travels I came across a tiefling who didn't speak common. (Very awesome RP on his hard too!).
We couldn't figure out the language barrier. I sent him a tell asking him if he minded me using psionic powers on him to RP the situation further and he was all for it.

When I used one power he recognized it as a telepath and became hostile speaking the word telepath in his native language. I calmed him down, handed off my swords and casted attraction on him and explained in tells that it gives the 'victim' the feeling that the caster is a very good friend and can be completly trusted.
NExt I casted contact to further simulate touching his mind then cast clairvoyance/clairaudience. (Little power adlibbing). I explained that i was trying to pick up any sights or sounds that may have happened to him recently and left a big impression on him, or nothing at all (giving the option to say no of course)

Was really caught off guard with the awesome description he gave n return. Saw parts of a vicious battle with a drider, the drider pinning him down and stabbing him, heard screams etc..
I then withdrew contact and explained to the others what I had picked up.

All in all he was RPing a challanging concept where he couldn't speak forcing (well inviting) other players to get creative, give them a challange. (BTW thanks for that!) We used psionics to bridge the gap some what and he was able to further develop and explore his own characters concept.

He helped us RP psionics, we helped him RP a cool angle of his character.

It sounds like some people (ace for example) have had bad exposure to psions (avlis maybe?) and we cault fault them for it having left a bad taste in their mouths.

I don't think it's fair to say, for example ace comment (sorry to single ya out) on how he believes Druid would pull it off when most others wouldnt. I don't think thats having a lot of faith in the psion community here in hala. Obviously I'm biased but even taking that into consideration I think the RP shown by the psions here have beentop notch. Most of not all have put a lot of work into not just leveling up in the class but *learning* about psions (as indicated by the amount of people who seek out Scel and his school). People put some very decent work into defining how their characters psionic powers fit into their character (and justify it).

With regard to tells.
Yes, there is a big opertunity to abuse it. The same way people already abuse tells. Example someone is "out numbered" in mirtho's rest and all of a sudden wow, 4 of their buddies pop in and show up, coincidence? No way.
And honestly I'm sure I'm guilty of this too. I'll admit that. It's something everyone has to work with and while the DMs catch people and punish them for it, we players need to police ourselves for the most part.

The comment was brought uphow impossible it would be to find one mind among so many. You can look atit like that. It's hard because we're applying logic to an enviroment where you can stop time and turn into a dragon or become a lich.
It would be nice to be able to send IC tells across world and could probably be justiied ICly but maybe restricting the IC telepath tells (which is basically just another form of language, right?) to within visual range as per other languages would be the best thing.

[Final Shinryuu]

[quote="Hala Rules "On Psionics""]ESP -
Power Description*: The psionicist gains a 10 point bonus to his persuade, bluff, and intimidate skills for the duration.
*Note: This ability is not for use as a way to read someone's mind. Such will not be allowed.

RP Effects: This is actually a personal effect, akin to a buff, and in no way is a targetted Telepathic power. It is mentioned here in this list specifically so that the definition is reinforced. You CANNOT read minds with this power. It's called ESP because you make yourself so alluring/persuasive/whatever that you could theoretically goad someone into spilling whatever information you needed. You CANNOT forcibly take said information from their mind.[/quote]

This is an assessment of psionics originally written by Fuzz on the Avlis forums, however Arkon has posted it in a locked thread entitled "On Psionics" in the Hala Rules forum. Unless it's changed, this implies to me that telepathy is absolutely not allowed.

[Druid523]

I politely disagree, Penguin. I believe "read someone's mind" implies using ESP as a way to gather information from an unwitting/unwilling person. That's not allowed.

Also, there is mention that it "in no way is a targeted Telepathic power". However, again, I think this is mentioned specifically to dissuade people from thinking that they can "target" someone with this power (i.e., select the power and click on another character) and "force" that person to roll a save, (if they fail, they would be forced to be influenced by the power, which goes contrary to the "cannot forcibly take...information" rule).

I believe that mutual consent between players to allow telepathic autonomous communication is an acceptable way to make use of the ESP power. Also, DMs have the right to allow certain unorthodox uses of a certain power/skill/etc. (DM-supervised, of course) during events or otherwise. Unless I am wrong in this assumption.

[Xanthalas]

I believe that mutual consent between players to allow telepathic autonomous communication is an acceptable way to make use of the ESP power. Also, DMs have the right to allow certain unorthodox uses of a certain power/skill/etc. (DM-supervised, of course) during events or otherwise. Unless I am wrong in this assumption.

This has been done. To good use.
Biggest thing is consent between players, and dm-supervised.
And as I've mentioned elsewhere, the RP aspect can be dealt with in many ways.

Sceluscio uses ESP, and meeets with Rykolyn
Surface thought
"Concern about some kind of Political Mayhem, Superiourity is prominent"

Agains Xai?
"Azuth guide me, Or general Prayer/Faith based thinking in seeking enlightenment."

Against Xyr? (Old Necromancer Bastard)
"I bet his blood would cover my scythe nicely."

Against Hawk? (Non-Common speaking Druid Elf)
"Why Funny Smelling man make eyes at me like that. Hawk not mate!"


Etc.


Or you can be really Vague.

Ryk
"Mindful and Concerned."
Xai.
"Well-Wishing"


Etc.

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

Good post Erik!

[ace4lyyfe]

It sounds like some people (ace for example) have had bad exposure to psions (avlis maybe?) and we cault fault them for it having left a bad taste in their mouths.

I've experienced psions on many servers, and I've seen the good and bad sides of them. As for you catching fault for my past experiences, I just see one more angle that someone can use for metagaming. If I thought that your proposed power uses could be used in a good, well rp'd way, then I would think it perfectly fine to use them as such. However, it would be nice if a dm could outline the exact technicalities involved with using these powers against another character.

With regard to tells.
Yes, there is a big opertunity to abuse it. The same way people already abuse tells. Example someone is "out numbered" in mirtho's rest and all of a sudden wow, 4 of their buddies pop in and show up, coincidence? No way.
And honestly I'm sure I'm guilty of this too. I'll admit that. It's something everyone has to work with and while the DMs catch people and punish them for it, we players need to police ourselves for the most part.

So, you're saying that since everyone already sends metagaming tells IG, it doesn't matter if we just give psions an excuse to send more?

The comment was brought uphow impossible it would be to find one mind among so many. You can look atit like that. It's hard because we're applying logic to an enviroment where you can stop time and turn into a dragon or become a lich.
It would be nice to be able to send IC tells across world and could probably be justiied ICly but maybe restricting the IC telepath tells (which is basically just another form of language, right?) to within visual range as per other languages would be the best thing.

The idea of having to be within sight is a rather good one as this would open up the use for a psion speech token. Just like the Druid animal token, or the Theives cant, someone could simply type their message with a psion token. This would also allow other psions in the area to see exactly what someone is sending with their mind, which would make sense, as their thoughts are floating in front of them.

[Akai]

As per PnP D&D rules, telepathy of any sort is independent of language, as the brain thinks in terms of ideas first, and language second.

Wasn't able to find any listing on ESP in the WotC D&D Player's or Psionics books. First and second edition AD&D didn't specify in the description of the spell, and first edition specified in the description of the psionic power, "Thoughts received in non-understood languages will be meaningless."

Any RL psych major can tell you this. Hope this helps add some realism

Depends whether you catch the thought before or after encoding, doesn't it?

[Xanthalas]

The idea of having to be within sight is a rather good one as this would open up the use for a psion speech token. Just like the Druid animal token, or the Theives cant, someone could simply type their message with a psion token. This would also allow other psions in the area to see exactly what someone is sending with their mind, which would make sense, as their thoughts are floating in front of them.

The general rule on some worlds. Is that line of sight is needed for any telepathy. (Non-Psions can recieve, though only send if the Psion is focusing. (Cannot be taking other actions) And each transmit, requires cost of a power. (Not ESP, since that's actually cloers to clairvoyance and clairaudience. (ESP in RL is the phenomena of knowing things that you don't know using the standard sensory functions, I would presume contact per message. (Sent or Recieved.) The fact of the matter is that it would be very hard to script this all in. Where as if it was a Psion Token, it would make that part easier. (Though Hard on the DM's for having to read through the spam) Or perhaps find some ruling to describe why Actual concious thoughts, (IE a Tell) Impossible in Hala, (It -is- an outer plane, as Arkon has mentioned, making Psionics unstable, due to enviroment) Maybe that's why things like ESP and Contact should allow nothing but muddled sensations, as described in my earlier post.
( "You sense unease, He's nervous about... something" )

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

So, you're saying that since everyone already sends metagaming tells IG, it doesn't matter if we just give psions an excuse to send more?

Yes, clearly. And since people in the past have duped and cheated I think we should just all, you know, cheat and stuff.

Naw what I'm saying is that you almost make it sound like this would open up a whole new can of metagame-flavored worms, when it's already a current issue.

I don't see this as on the same page either. One on hand your mretagaming.
On the other your ICly using a unique character power (like language tokens, like teleport) to send messages.
Players at it were at times send OOC tells anyways. Allowing this and cnfining it to IC with, perhaps power restrictions/prerequisits, wouldn't unbalance the world and bring about the end of days.

My argument is that the players of hala are mature enough to not abuse something like this, thats all.

[Rudiki]

Ace seems to be worried about people being able to have their characters use the powers against his character. I can understand that concern.

Here's my concern. I want to be able to use the powers for dramatic roleplay. I have no problem only doing this with other people who agree to it, which would mean that unless Ace wanted me to I would not be able to affect his character at all with these powers beyond the actual mechanical effects that are universally agreed upon. What I don't want to see is a restriction that would limit the great RP possibilities of these powers.

[Druid523]

I want to be able to use the powers for dramatic roleplay. I have no problem only doing this with other people who agree to it, which would mean that unless Ace wanted me to I would not be able to affect his character at all with these powers beyond the actual mechanical effects that are universally agreed upon. What I don't want to see is a restriction that would limit the great RP possibilities of these powers.

Bravo and well said, sir. I agree wholeheartedly.

[ace4lyyfe]

Ace seems to be worried about people being able to have their characters use the powers against his character. I can understand that concern.

Here's my concern. I want to be able to use the powers for dramatic roleplay. I have no problem only doing this with other people who agree to it, which would mean that unless Ace wanted me to I would not be able to affect his character at all with these powers beyond the actual mechanical effects that are universally agreed upon. What I don't want to see is a restriction that would limit the great RP possibilities of these powers.

Being able to send psionic telepathy tells across the server does nothing to further rp.