Crafting, Crafting, Crafting.

Talks that may or may not have anything to do with Hala or NWN

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Nastr0nd
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Crafting, Crafting, Crafting.

Post by Nastr0nd »

While it is horribly late in the day for NWN and with few players and fewer crafters around it may not seem like the best idea to be considering updating the crafting system but that is what we are thinking of doing. There's no doubt that in many ways it needs it.
So what is envisaged is a new crafting system that will run parallel to the existing one, rather than replacing it wholesale. Your skills, for the most part, will carry over to any new system so you won't have to start from scratch, and you can carry on using the old system, at least for a while.
With luck the new system will be much more flexible, extensive and balanced. However a lot of it is still under discussion so now is the time to put forward any ideas or wish lists you may have, before the hard work really starts. Feel free to be as wild as you like.
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Crafting

Post by BPanther »

Just was thinking is this for new recipes or alter the way how items are done, ie more or less various ingredients for single item. (simpler recipes or more complicated?) new recipes and different items are always welcome.
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Post by p0m »

Craftable ponies.

Also, it'd be nice for crafting on various CoPaP worlds to not overlap like it does. Might there be some way of cashing in your levels of crafting on other servers to Hala and vice-versa?
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Post by Akai »

I would like crafting to produce mostly charged and expendable items. Recipes that produce permanent items should have scarce components; the most powerful permanent items, the rarest components. The things most quickly used up, arrows and healing kits, should have common components.

Ammunition should be created in stacks of 99 or 50.

Possibly bowyery/fletching/carpentry can be combined into one skill, and blacksmithing/armorsmithing/weaponcrafting into another skill, so that people can do most of the grunt work of levelling in ammunition, which might actually be consumed instead of sold to NPC's.

Tailorable bags would be nice.
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Post by Shannen »

p0m wrote:Craftable ponies.

Also, it'd be nice for crafting on various CoPaP worlds to not overlap like it does. Might there be some way of cashing in your levels of crafting on other servers to Hala and vice-versa?
+1

Not trying to offend anyone - perhaps there is rhyme to the reason that I just don't know about but ... from my perspective as a player who has a crafter on Arkaz (and used to play a crafter on Avlis), it would be nice to have my Arkaz pc come over here and have the opportunity to craft when no one is around to rp with. As it is, the components don't even cross over.

ie. Hala cotton is not the same as Avlis or Arkaz cotton. I don't understand why it's a totally different piece of matter in the first place. I don't like it a bit.
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Post by Akai »

Some components do cross over; I think the difference is whether the designer used an item already in the palette or created a custom item. If so, yes, a system that used standard palette items wherever possible would be preferable.
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Post by Zombie »

Production vs Practise
Two modes of crafting. One where the aim is to produce the finished good with a higher chance of making an item and a lower chance of gaining craft XP. The practise mode is the other way around.

Crafting Journal
A useable item that brings up a conversation where you can list all the recipes your character has discovered. Handy if there are lots or they are complicated.

Reverse Engineering
Destroy a crafted item to have a chance to learn part of the recipe. Useful if used with the crafting journal so a part discovery can be recorded.

Potions
The ability to craft potions like wands and scrolls. So extended, empowered, maximized potion of Thor’s Might :D

Runes and Sockets
Permanent items are made by crafting a rune with the enchantment you want and then crafting a socketed item to put the runes into, like Diablo. So a +3 item needs 3 of the same rune. Rune crafting would be a separate craft. So with this you could craft an amulet +1 Dex +1 Con +1 ac.

Salvage
The ability to break an existing item to salvage metal, runes, components etc. Great for crafters who don’t want to learn rune crafting and an interesting use for “disposable” loot. So you could break an amulet of natural armor +1 to get a chance at one of magical essence, 1 socket amulet, silver ingot, ac rune – amulet etc. Even if an item isn’t craftable it can still be salvaged to some extent.
Perhaps an NPC could do this for you in some way as well, which would cost gold but be a guaranteed sucess

Use item enhancer code instead of palette items
Buy making crafted items on the fly, rather than picking them from a list in the mod, you get much more freedom with what can be created. It also means you don’t have to have all the craftable items in the mod.

Transfer of Skill
Crafting ranks from other servers count for half on Hala. So someone who has done the hard work on another server doesn’t have to start from scratch if they come over to experiment. The still wont know the recipes though.

Master Craft Project
A master of a craft can, with DM assistance, craft 1 master project item. This is a +4 item and needs some dm drop components. Easier with runes and sockets as it can be a for socket item.

Crafters name on the item
When an item is crafted, the crafters name is in the description. Pride for the crafter and tracking of someone dumping crafted items on merchants for the team.

Mining isn’t adversely affected by damage.
Please. Strong characters smash veins to bits in a few blows. It’s one of the reasons I gave up crafting with Morgan. Perhaps when mining you get a mining roll for every X damage inflicted and the vein can support X damage. So stronger characters finish faster but don’t get more or less chances that weaker ones.

Recharging
Perhaps “magical essence” used to recharge items can be craftable/salvageable. Would need to have item recharging in the mod though ;)
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Post by Akai »

+1 Zombie! :)
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Post by _JM_ »

Crafters name on the item :
Quite a few of the crafted items do have the crafter’s name in the description, and have done for a while. Does work to discourage selling crafted items to anything but [FOIG] cash-for-trash. Or worked to stop me doing jewellery before Jay was naturalised and worked on me earlier today when I found that Ramar and his weapon crafting had [GOIG].

Mining:
Agree about problems for strong characters. I remember Dan’eth having trouble and that Jay gets more if I remember to NOT have Bull’s Strength and STR Ioun Stone. Been careful with Ramar to let any extra strength or Strength of the Land (+3 magic damage) wear off or not be manifested.

One bug…or feature…is that you can get gems or ore if you miss the vein. So always hoping to miss and do no damage rather than hit precisely for a critical hit. Seems a little arsey-varsey compared with combat as a miss should be nothing and a critical hit should be hitting it “just right”. Might be what Zombie was meaning, get a crit and for Morgan that would equal hacking the entire vein out of the side of the mountain with one blow.

Mining speed…it was annoying with Ramar that he was mining half as fast as Jay. Seems that four attacks a round is “whack-whack” but one, two, or three is only “whack”. I do see the logic that someone who can swing a weapon faster could swing a pick faster but tedious enough even when twice as fast to finish.

Quibble [FOIG].

Production vs Practise :
Agree with Zombie. When I was doing jewellery with Jay I was not that interested in the coin he was earning but it simply seemed less “weird” to assume [FOIG] If there had been a practice option then Jay would have been using it (or using it once the value of the jewellery was greater than the costs incurred).

(And I have a suspicion that karma might have bitten me. That the amount of coin Jay earned when he didn't need it [FOIG] )

One thing I would say though is that (at present) Armourcrafting and Weaponcrafting allow you to dump the crafted items into the forge to salvage the metal. Therefore although the low end items are not worth the trouble of selling they might be more practice if you can make them, melt them down, make them again, melt them down again…etc. than in a practice mode.

A practice mode would make more sense (to me) than trashing though and would avoid people getting rich when they were mostly wanting to just get skilled. And is a much nicer way of avoiding it than the Avlis “**** YOU!” system of marking crafted items stolen.

(Same problem that merchant inventories being clogged with pages of crafted items causes lag. Hala solves it by [FOIG] Avlis solves it by making crafted items unable to be sold.)

Veins and smelting and crafting time:
Hala is a lot better than Avlis. On Avlis when Jay wanted to make some crossbow bolts it was a case of setting the crafting going and then having a nap while Jay stood there twiddling his wrist. But it does still seem to take a lot of time though it could just be me doing too much.

It seems better to me to finish mining a vein of metal so it can respawn rather than leave it damaged for someone to get a disappointing yield from, which can be rather a lot of Ore. It does vary with how rare the metal is from inexhaustible copper/bronze/iron at <place> to the very delicate Adamantine at <place> and <place> and how long it lasts does depend on what you are making. But the medium metals Ramar is using give enough ingots for a lot of swords and Jay could make a lot of rings from the smaller amount of Mithril he could mine.

I know from Jay’s conversations with Velesti that armour takes a lot more ingots so armour with rare metals is the opposite problem of getting enough. With Jay and Ramar though the problem has been that clearing a vein means they end up with enough ingots to need to spend a lot of time then making them into stuff. Trashing the ingots seems like a waste and carrying too much in inventory (even zero weight items) is not good as it is so ****ing annoying when someone logs in or server transitions and everything freezes for a few seconds. Jay does have the other option of a storeroom though.

If the veins are all going to be altered to a different system then perhaps they could be split? Rather than one vein that gives a lot there could be four or five with a quarter or a fifth the yield so you can clear one vein if that is all you want for rings or all of them if you are making full-plate armour?

Sorry... there was a bit to much info in this post. Had to edit it. Please watch what you put in general posts. ~Nas
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Post by Zombie »

I like the idea of more veins in the same spot but with a lower yield per vein.
I also like the idea that something can either be don slowly and cheaply or quickly and expensivly. For example crafting your own ingrediants over buying them from an NPC.

Crafting location affecting outcome
What I mean is, in order to craft some items you need to craft them in a specific place. So for example a Brooch of Bahamut needs to be crafted on an alter to Bahamut while the necromantic bones need to be crafted on a Shagarath alter. Rather than limiting some items to specific races, classes or religions you just make them craftable only on certain places associated with those things. I suppose the other option is to just have an ingredient associated with the restriction.
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Post by Tremayne7 »

(Just in case no one knew from the Hala Team, I am one of the Craftmasters for Arkaz).

I know why the items are not standard across servers and it is because the item tags are not from the standard NWN pallett. If NastrOnd, myself and whoever is the same for Avlis would like to share item lists and tag names, I have no problem with this. It might require more work for some of our builders on Arkaz and would require some standardization on all three servers.

I have no problem with common items (like arrows, heal kits, potions) being common. :D Just we have different items to use than Hala.

While it would be nice to share crafting experience cross servers, I don't think that will happen because of the codes and scripts of each servers' crafting system. It's like the Animal Companion scripts, you can train your companion on one server, but that xp doesn't transfer to another server. If Avlis, Hala and Arkaz wanted to use the same crafting scripts, it might be possible, but I don't think that is realistic.

I do agree that arrows should make between 50 and 99 per try. Getting only one arrow out a try is rather silly.

I'd like to talk to you Nas about what you all are proposing changing and stuff if you'd like to try to do.
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Post by Nastr0nd »

Tremayne7 wrote: I do agree that arrows should make between 50 and 99 per try. Getting only one arrow out a try is rather silly.

I'd like to talk to you Nas about what you all are proposing changing and stuff if you'd like to try to do.
Missiles crafted on hala nolonger produce just 1 missile but a reasonable amount now (up to 99 for arrows, 50 for darts). This fix was implemented some while back.
Pop into #hala IRC for a chat any time Tremayne.

We would like to take into account crafting skills learned on other servers when crafting on Hala. I think the portal software can be configured to carry over those values but I don't know how reliable or compatible it is. I will certainly try and sort out something with other world operators so that this information can be passed round.

~N
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Post by Zombie »

Collaboration would be very neat and opens up the exciting possibility of Ysgardian iron being better for crafting while Nuvarian cotton makes the best garments. Wouldn’t that be interesting? Importing ingredients from another server because you get better results when crafting.

In my mind the recipes would need to allow for some ingredients to be substituted for others, or have more than 1 recipe to take the different ingredients into account. Sounds like a bit of a pain overall.

If the systems were close enough to each other another possibility is that the recipes are available on both worlds, even though the ingredients aren’t. Another interesting situation where a crafter would want to import ingredients.

Change Base Item Type
An idea I had this morning is to be able to change the base type of an item. Change chain mail to plate or plate to robes and change shields and weapons into other types. Effectively you would move all the enhancements from one item and put them on another. Perhaps not something for crafting but more for an NPC transmuter.
Iv’e done this a few times for characters as a DM reward and wonder if it could work as something players can just do for themselves.
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Post by Tremayne7 »

Nastr0nd wrote:
Tremayne7 wrote: I do agree that arrows should make between 50 and 99 per try. Getting only one arrow out a try is rather silly.

I'd like to talk to you Nas about what you all are proposing changing and stuff if you'd like to try to do.
Missiles crafted on hala nolonger produce just 1 missile but a reasonable amount now (up to 99 for arrows, 50 for darts). This fix was implemented some while back.
Pop into #hala IRC for a chat any time Tremayne.

We would like to take into account crafting skills learned on other servers when crafting on Hala. I think the portal software can be configured to carry over those values but I don't know how reliable or compatible it is. I will certainly try and sort out something with other world operators so that this information can be passed round.

~N
Will do!
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Post by Gregpooh »

A few thoughts. Many of these have appeared here before, so I'll keep them brief.

First: YAY!! love to see new crafting ideas being bandied about. Kudos to anyone willing to do the hard scripting to make this happen!

On Mining/ Gathering

Keep your variables simple. Example: Mining veins, make them all give a similar number of ore bits regardless of type. When you want to control the rarity, change the number of spawns. Most systems change both number of spawns and yield of spawns. This makes it harder to track actual productivity. KISS.

Stuff should make sense

Things need to progress logically. Recipes, power of items, value of items, cost of materials should all seem reasonable. Many items currently are worth less than the value of the materials used to make them. (see arrows).

Work is as important as ingredients for big, non-reusable items.

Things like armor and weapons should take effort to make. It shouldn't be possible (or required) to make dozens or hundreds of examples of something like this to progress in crafting. Add sub ingredients (armor plates for armor, folded metal billets for weapons, etc. People can use these for practice without having to assemble an entire suit of armor or weapon. eg. Do I really need lots of cotton batting to practice making pieces of armor, or do I only need it when I'm making a finished suit? Make the sub assemblies a difficulty level lower than the finished product. People will always have something to practice on. People will be able to sell their sub assemblies to higher level crafters. It gives the option of doing less gathering but more working to advance for people who wish to do that.

Partial successes

Not sure how doable this is, but it would be nice for things like Gem cutting or armor making. One way to do this would be to have success be very rare, but have failure only rarely result in loss of ingredients. Each attempt would still grant some crafting xp (you learn more by failure than by success) Let's say for example that you dropped the success rate on an item from 50% to 5%, but also dropped the chance of loosing the ingredients down to 10% of what it was. A person would still make the same number of attempts. THey'd get XP the same, but they'd only make 10% of what they would have made otherwise. This would keep rare, or non reusable items rare. It would alleviate the need to sell mass quantities of things to NPC vendors. It would allow for rare spawns to produce less items and still be useful.


Just a few ideas to get the brain juices flowing. Perhaps more later.
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Post by Akai »

It would be nice if magical effects of jewelry/alchemy/herbalism were related to actual folkloric beliefs concerning the effects of the various stones and herbs. I bet this could be easily found nowadays on the internet. (Failing that, at least have them have consistent fictional qualities, so that a person learning the properties of a given herb or stone can reasonably guess in what sort of recipe it might be used.)
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Post by Xanthalas »

I agree, though there's some caveats to be kept in mind. The character should be making the guess, not the Player, (A good reason not to use Real World recipes, or to not focus on one lore, over another. Even though there should be heavy Nordic themes. Being that most folkloric practices, are regional, it'd be better to stay within the realm of fiction.

But definitely, it would be nice to see some semblance of continuity. If a particular root, grants some resistance to fire, when used to help tan some leather, the same root could perhaps be used to make a potion, or even have related effects when used in weaponry.

A particular gem might help grant +1 fire damage to a weapon, or add a small resistance to cold damage in armor. Etc. It also might help keep the ingredient usage down. (Rather than having several different kinds of ingredients for each discipline.)
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Post by Akai »

Would rather that anyone can attempt any craft, rather than having to find training first to even attempt it. (If training is kept, please add the ability for PC's who have mastered a craft to train beginners.)
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Post by Zombie »

Having to find the NPC to unlock crafting annoys me a bit too. I think it would be more fun to have the crafting NPCs give out a quest or unlock the ability to craft a “prestige item” for each level of crafting. Like the idea of a master creating a special master item, but not as exciting.

The NPC says they want you to do XYZ (with hints of ingredients). You craft a token to give to the NPC who congratulates you with XP and bragging rights and perhaps a special rune. You don’t need to do it to keep progressing in the craft though.

Perhaps the idea could be expanded so that a PC can also be the master and then use the tokens themselves to craft something that acknowledges them as a trainer. We may not have the player base for that though.
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Post by Spxip »

There's one thing I hope to be done for crafters: if you need a weapon type item for gathering, can they be made so that you don't need specific feats to be able to wield the item? For example: mining pickaxe isn't made for fighting, but you need martial weapon feat to be able to even wield the pickaxe.
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Post by Akai »

Spxip, try using the mining mace, does the same job.

On the subject, if special tools aren't absolutely necessary, do without them; having to have a special axe to use the woodworking equipment, a special hammer to use the blacksmithing equipment, etc., clutters up the inventory and weighs one down.
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Post by Soul Hunter »

AS per conversation in the game here are a few ideals I have had over the years (Not are are compatable)
1) To lower the number of items crafted by increasing time to craft but adjust xp gain to every item crafted thats not easy.
ie instead of making 20 swords in 5 minutes and gaining 1 xp make 1 sword in 5 minutes and gain 1 xp (skill increase could maybe makea bit faster) To ensure the player doesnt just go afk for 5 minutes you could have a requirement to take some action in game such as use the anvil, use the forge , use the cooliing bucket
-There would be more of a sense of acomplishment in my mind

2) Pratice /Discovery mode been discuded by others discovery could be more than just sitting at the work equipment it could be mini quests like the deliver this object to that person quests but instead its go to this location to get next clue

3) Crafting bags instead of the assoiciated lag with people carring large numberof items in inventory havea bag that is linked to database items as collected would be added to database, all base crafting items would stored in the bag. Work would have to be done to ensure that you manage the contents properly. Item wieght, Item size and number of items carried. ie Teron with full strength would be able to have more ore than Lexy in his crafting bag but both would still be only able to carry x number of plant based craftables before bag is full.

4)Some items need a redo on recipes. take swords after iron we get into silver and gold etc. no one would make a solid gold sword even if this isa fantasy realm how about steel is next and then what is now a gold sword is changed to a steel sword with a bit of gold added in some fashion either as an alloy or coating

5) gem cutting in particular when I want to cut a normal turquoise gem half the time I end up with a exceptional??? I dont want an exceptional maybe make Exceptional a different recipe with a lot larger range on diffucult

.. more as I recall ideals
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Post by Tremayne7 »

Something else I thought of in relation to the crafting xp here...

It seems so random on how one progresses in level. It seems you stay stuck on one level for like forever as it takes forever to get xp at higher levels. Perhaps something like a 1000 point cap (like it is now), but level every 100 crafting xp.

Standardizing how one levels would be nice. :)
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Post by Soul Hunter »

Tremayne7 wrote:Something else I thought of in relation to the crafting xp here...

It seems so random on how one progresses in level. It seems you stay stuck on one level for like forever as it takes forever to get xp at higher levels. Perhaps something like a 1000 point cap (like it is now), but level every 100 crafting xp.

Standardizing how one levels would be nice. :)
Actually unless things have cchanged there are no "levels" per say in the current crafting system, each recipe has a starting point, thus a carefully designed recipes would always be presenting you with new challenges, if there are few recipes and the starting point are far apart then you have large periods.

This leads to the suggestion of spreading the starting points of recipes evenly across the range that way you have different things to work on constanlty rather than a need to always work on the same thing.
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Post by Tremayne7 »

That's my point. You have to work and work and work at the same thing to get anywhere past a certain stage. It should be more spread out so that somethings are easy, others difficult but doable, others hard and some just beyond the reach, but still may have a chance of making them.

I know once something becomes easy, you shouldn't gain any xp from it (like the beginning items for any craft).
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