Clerics and their Gods.

[Psye Shaar]

The handiwork of the gods is everywhere - in places of natural beauty, in mighty crusades, in soaring temples and in the hearts of worshippers. Like people, gods run the gamut from benevolent to malicious, reserved to intrusive, simple to inscrutable. The gods, however, work mostly through intermediaries - their clerics. Good clerics heal, protect and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy and sabotage. A cleric uses the power of his god to make the god's will manefest.

I've highlighted that last sentence for a reason.

If you wish to play a cleric, then that cleric must have a god. If they don't have a god, then they cannot draw power. While there are certain exceptions to this rule, only those that have researched them and have some extremely good RP basis to back them up, will not be treated as a 'godless' or 'out of favour' cleric.

A cleric's allignment must be within one step of his deity's (that is, it may be one step away on either side of the lawful-chaotic axis or good-evil axis, but not both)

Clerics spread the word of their god and should act in a manner that their god would consider satisfactory. If they don't, they will fall out of favour and once again, find themself with no power.

The reason for this post is that we are seeing an increasing number of people playing clerics as fighters with spells. This is not what a cleric is and thus, won't be tolerated. If you play a cleric, then you need to follow a god that is in line with your character concept. If you don't, then you can expect repercussions in the form of punishment from the gods themselves, as well as the loss of your spells.

Finally, this is not an invitation for people to start metagaming allignment hits. Just because you may know a way to shift your allignment to match a god, doesn't make it ok. The team can be pm'd if your character requires an allignment shift of any kind because of the direction you wish to take them, with your characters actions then being watched to see if they are deserving.

[silverdragonams]

This applies to Druids and Paladins as well.

Druids who do not maintain a neutral alignment or act against nature will lose their druidic powers. Paladins must maintain a LG alignment and have a LG god in their deity field.

[Arkon]

This posting has Arkon's Stamp of Approval

[Cat]

Paladins must maintain a LG alignment and have a LG god in their deity field.

Thats 100% right ? Thor is listed as having paladin worshipers, his alingment is CG, so is Correllon, and the only seldarine elven deity that can have paladins.

[silverdragonams]

I think this qualifies as a NWN limitation, since only LG characters can take paladin levels in NWN. And, since a paladin is a God's champion, he must have the same alignment as his deity...or, so I have always understood.

We have been considering implementing Holy Warrior PrC's for other Gods...but it's a matter of finding someone to script them, getting it into the CoPaP hak, ect, ect

[Last Chancellor]

Actually according to the rules a paladin does not have to be the same alignment as their god.

Deities such as St. Cuthbert (LN), Pelor (NG), and yes even Correlon Larethian (CG), all have paladins in their service. The Lawful dimension of a paladin is meant to represent the very strict code they live by, not a conscious effort to directly imitate their god or goddess. In terms of aligment however the deity must always be Good, St. Cuthbert being the sole exception because he is a a deity of justice and law. But they need not be *Lawful* Good per se.

As the Player's Handbook points out "Those paladins who do align themselves with particular religions tend to prefer Heironeous over all others, but some paladins follow Pelor." In that sentence alone it seems to be made clear that you can go beyond the LG alignment for a deity. It would make sense that some NG and even CG deities would have paladins as champions of their respective faiths.

ETA: Re-reading this it may not have been clear but I was speaking *only* of the deity's alignments. Of course a paladin MUST be LG. Period. I was just speaking to the question of which deities one is allowed to serve.

Otherwise these posts have been awesome, I completely agree about the cleric issue. It can be annoying to see people using the powers of a cleric without RPing the faith when one takes pains to do so with their backstory and their roleplay. So amen to that... (no pun intended)

[Psye Shaar]

Can Paladins in NWN be anything other than LG?... No

this qualifies as a NWN limitation

It's that simple boys and girls.

If at any point some new Holy Warrior classes can be implemented, then other alignments will be addressed, but it's a very long road to get them in in the first place.

[Cat]

Can Paladins in NWN be anything other than LG?... No

this qualifies as a NWN limitation

It's that simple boys and girls.

If at any point some new Holy Warrior classes can be implemented, then other alignments will be addressed, but it's a very long road to get them in in the first place.

Original Paladin is not the avlis holy warrior PrC paladin. You need to let go the avlis style thinking since many of you were or are playing there.

Even not all Clerics must be within two alingments of they deity, some deitys require only Lawfull, Good, Chaotic, Evil even if they are not LN,NG,CN,NE.
Avlis has rules about setting, other 3th edition settings use ~guide lines~, one of those is that clerics must be within 1 alingment step, but some deitys have just special requirments. It was the rule on avlis that evryone has to be same alingment.

Example Corellon: http://www.myth-drannor.net/Dlabraddath ... m#Corellon

And in Halas history Almara was a NG good deity with quiet many Paladins.

((on side note; its a good side about elves that i would recommand anyone playing one but does not know them well yet heh))

[silverdragonams]

Alright, I stand partially corrected.
My knowledge of Paladins only following LG gods is based on Avlis's rulings.

Here is the logical way to deal with this. Dune or Arkon will change this as they feel necessary.

Paladins powers are divine, therefore, like clerics, they must be granted by a God. Except in certain cases, as Psye mentioned:

While there are certain exceptions to this rule, only those that have researched them and have some extremely good RP basis to back them up, will not be treated as a 'godless'

So if you want to play a godless paladin, do some research and have the RP to back it up.

Avlis has rules about setting, other 3th edition settings use ~guide lines~, one of those is that clerics must be within 1 alingment step

That is Hala's rule for Clerics as well and should probably apply to Paladins too. So, LG, LN, NG are all in. A Paladin following a CG deitiy creates all sorts of problems.
"That person is breaking the Law! But stopping her would be interfering with the personal freedom that is sacred to my God! Oh what do I do!?"

[Psye Shaar]

edit: beaten by Silver, but i'll leave it up

Avlis Holy warrior PrC's are just that. AVLIS ones.

The only 'Paladin' class available on Hala is the standard Paladin. The one that requires a LG alignment

Even not all Clerics must be within two alingments of they deity, some deitys require only Lawfull, Good, Chaotic, Evil even if they are not LN,NG,CN,NE.
Avlis has rules about setting, other 3th edition settings use ~guide lines~, one of those is that clerics must be within 1 alingment step, but some deitys have just special requirments. It was the rule on avlis that evryone has to be same alingment.

At no point have we stated that clerics on Ysgard and Hala must be the exact alignment of their god. What is true however is that they must be roleplayed as a cleric of that god.

As has been said on countless occasions about countless different things, we can only work within game mechanic restrictions, which means you often don't have the freedom to play a character exactly how any given set of rules portrays them.

Telling us what Avlis does and doesn't do isn't go to make it happen here.

[Last Chancellor]

Although the D&D rules in theory allow for godless clerics and paladins I agree it's just a bad idea to allow across the board as too many people will cheese it utterly. Cleric, Paladin, Druid, and Ranger- as well as a couple of other classes have stringent RP requirements that must be observed. There is still plenty of room for diversity with each, but there are guides that define how such a class would be properly RPed. So yes, every cleric and pally must have a god.

"That person is breaking the Law! But stopping her would be interfering with the personal freedom that is sacred to my God! Oh what do I do!?"

Normally I'd agree, though the Elven deities present a unique issue in this regard as paladins of Correlon would be regarded as the sacred Elven defenders of the race for example. In my opinion the Lawful side of a paladins alignment can be construed as being chiefly the manifestation of the very strict, ascetic code by which paladins live- not always necessarily the strictest reverence for all wider law.

A paladin (or any LG character) can even think a law unjust, but what their alignment would call for then (as opposed to blindly following said law) is to have them change the law through 'legal' means rather than, say, an open revolt.

To say that one cannot venerate personal freedom as a LG character or that CG automatically means lawbreaking and troublemaking doesn't do either extreme much justice.

I'm not really pushing for anything here, by the way, nor am I being argumentative. Just imagine me saying this calmly and conversationally^^ I just feel like nerd-ing out and discussing D&D rules, so don't mind me.

[silverdragonams]

I do agree with you Last Chancellor. I guess what it comes down to is making the DnD book rules fit with the house rules that we already have in place, and the house rules of the Other CoPaP worlds. Otherwise, what is acceptable on one world becomes Grade A Wisconsin Cheddar on another. I imagine if Arborea had gotten of the ground, we would be seeing plenty of Paladins of Correllion around CoPaP. On the other hand, if you go to Avlis with a paladin and have something other than Gorather or another well known LG God in your deitey field, you will probably be questioned.

In the end, there are always exceptions to rules like these. If you want to play a cleric or a Paladin that goes outside the norm, its always best to PM the team with your character concept in order to avoid problems

I just feel like nerd-ing out and discussing D&D rules, so don't mind me.

A DnD Nerd? Here?! Who would have thunk it? (You wanna come over and see my pocket protector collection?)

[charlierazor]

Question. I currently play a druid who is considered by most more animal than elf. Leader of a pack of wolves. He and his wolves ~do~ kill animals, but it's about the hunt, and about food for survival. Does this still fall in lines with what you have in mind? I want to make sure, as I don't want him to grow too attached to him, if the DM's dissaprove my character concept for him.

On a final note, my history basically states in his past life, he ~was~ wolf, and his advisors, i.e. monster summon 1 and companion were killed by a group of orcs that raided his packs territory. Last Chancellor will attest to my rp of him, if their are questions. Is this acceptable behavior and concept for a druid? I'm hoping so as I really rather enjoy playing him. I ask in public about this, as I feel it would be good public knowledge.

charlie

[silverdragonams]

He and his wolves ~do~ kill animals, but it's about the hunt, and about food for survival. Does this still fall in lines with what you have in mind?

Thats fine. Not all druids are tree hugging, fluffy bunny pansies A "survival of the fittest" philosophy is certainly very...um...druid-ey.

Otherwise....

Leader of a pack of wolves.

As long as you are clear that your "pack" consists of you, your companion, and your summon. Claiming that you are a leader of a pack of NPC wolves would be like Sara claiming she's in command of flight of dragons

The rest of it I'm not so sure about....like...why would a wolf die and reincarnate as an Elf on Ysgard instead of going to the Beastlands? So, if you could send us a history of the character, it would probably answer a lot of questions. You can either PM me or the Hala Team account. By no means are we going to tell you to stop playing him. But it would be nice to know your reasoning

[Last Chancellor]

Thats fine. Not all druids are tree hugging, fluffy bunny pansies. A "survival of the fittest" philosophy is certainly very...um...druid-ey.

Yep, druidy indeed. There's nothing wrong with any of Lom's behaviour from a druidic perspective. He's a predator, yes- but nature is rife with predators. The whole reason druids emphasise balance is because nature encompasses most everything, good and evil, order and chaos, nurturing and destruction. Lom's behaviour (as is that of all wolf packs) is a vital part of that ecosystem.

He and his pack hunt to subsist, no druid would have a problem with that.

I guess what it comes down to is making the DnD book rules fit with the house rules that we already have in place, and the house rules of the Other CoPaP worlds.

Yeah, I can certainly understand. In terms of certain questions regarding rules it's nice when they're made public, group discussions on them can be productive. Avlis, however, is an entire campaign setting unto itself- practically another dimension- so conflicts would be understandable.

A DnD Nerd? Here?! Who would have thunk it? (You wanna come over and see my pocket protector collection?)

Woo!

[darkserra]

Hmmm,

This is not the first time the whole "paladins have to be LG" debate has arisen.

For those of you who can remember, this very topic was much discussed back in the days of 1st ed AD&D.... rummaging around in the old brainbox and dusting off memories led me to find a handy little article from Dragon Magazine #106, February 1986... (yep 20 years ago, and yes I bought a copy off of the newsstands)

The article discussed "paladins" as a very specific type of holy warrior, one employed by the Lawful Good gods... but other gods would have their versions... (Hey! I want one of those too......)

Myrikhan (NG)
Garath (CG)
Lyan (LN)
Paramander (N)
Fantra (CN)
Illrigger (LE)
Arrikhan (NE)

The Anti-Paladin had already been trotted out for the whole of the gaming community to argue over, so the article discusses the rest of the alignments. It is not a hard arguement to make that since LG gods have holy warriors, would not the other gods have them too?

Bottom line.... in NWN, you want to be a paladin.. you got to be LG... unless you consider the Blackguard as the "Anti-Paladin".

So, on Hala, we get LG paladins.... and I haven't seen any blackguards running aroung.....

[silverdragonams]

and I haven't seen any blackguards running aroung.....

then...maybe you should look down more often....

[darkserra]

hehehe.........

Right after I posted that "I havent seen any blackguards......"

I saw one....

Open mouth, insert foot...... yummy!

[NWDuneAuron]

I'm a big fan of getting rid of 'Paladin' etc, and replacing it with 3 PrCs - 'Holy Warrior of Generic Good Deity', 'Holy Warrior of Generic Neutral Deity' and 'Holy Warrior of Generic Evil Deity'. It'd make things much easier.

[darkserra]

I'm a big fan of getting rid of 'Paladin' etc, and replacing it with 3 PrCs - 'Holy Warrior of Generic Good Deity', 'Holy Warrior of Generic Neutral Deity' and 'Holy Warrior of Generic Evil Deity'. It'd make things much easier.

I agree, having generic holy warriors would not only be easier, but make it more fair for those "other" alignments.

The question is whether we can or should do something about it on Hala?

[Dengar]

Seeing how Dune is a DM, the thought will no doubt be put out to the others... but the fact is, does anyone have the skills to Script it, and is there always going to be someone online to run it?

[CaraKeltry]

I was reading this post expecting to see information about Clerics and their Gods. Instead I end up reading a multiple paragraph semi-rant about pg'ing and a direct request to punish these pg'ers. Do I have the right thread? What happened to the Clerics?

[Dengar]

[/quote]I was reading this post expecting to see information about Clerics and their Gods. Instead I end up reading a multiple paragraph semi-rant about pg'ing and a direct request to punish these pg'ers. Do I have the right thread? What happened to the Clerics?[quote]

What's your Question, or what did you want to know about Clerics?

[Psye Shaar]

I was reading this post expecting to see information about Clerics and their Gods. Instead I end up reading a multiple paragraph semi-rant about pg'ing and a direct request to punish these pg'ers. Do I have the right thread? What happened to the Clerics?

The post was in direct response to a growing problem.

If you wish to see a post about clerics, their deities and how they should act in respect to their choice of god, then by all means start one either here or in the clerics usergroup. You'll find a lot of people more than happy to search through various sites to find snippets of information about just about anything.

Google is your friend....

As was pointed out in the initial post, what we don't want to see is people just using the class for it's spells and abilities. No-one has started stripping spells/powers yet, as we like to give people a chance to do something about it first, but should they choose not to, then the consequences will be of their own making.

[Psye Shaar]

The handiwork of the gods is everywhere - in places of natural beauty, in mighty crusades, in soaring temples and in the hearts of worshippers. Like people, gods run the gamut from benevolent to malicious, reserved to intrusive, simple to inscrutable. The gods, however, work mostly through intermediaries - their clerics. Good clerics heal, protect and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy and sabotage. A cleric uses the power of his god to make the god's will manefest.

I've highlighted that last sentence for a reason.

If you wish to play a cleric, then that cleric must have a god. If they don't have a god, then they cannot draw power. While there are certain exceptions to this rule, only those that have researched them and have some extremely good RP basis to back them up, will not be treated as a 'godless' or 'out of favour' cleric.

A cleric's allignment must be within one step of his deity's (that is, it may be one step away on either side of the lawful-chaotic axis or good-evil axis, but not both)

Clerics spread the word of their god and should act in a manner that their god would consider satisfactory. If they don't, they will fall out of favour and once again, find themself with no power.

The reason for this post is that we are seeing an increasing number of people playing clerics as fighters with spells. This is not what a cleric is and thus, won't be tolerated. If you play a cleric, then you need to follow a god that is in line with your character concept. If you don't, then you can expect repercussions in the form of punishment from the gods themselves, as well as the loss of your spells.

Finally, this is not an invitation for people to start metagaming allignment hits. Just because you may know a way to shift your allignment to match a god, doesn't make it ok. The team can be pm'd if your character requires an allignment shift of any kind because of the direction you wish to take them, with your characters actions then being watched to see if they are deserving.

Once again this is a topic that sadly, needs to be brought to attention.