Metagaming

[Traces Of Reality]

DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to offend anyone in any way but if you do somehow get offended than oh well : )


Is it metagaming when you take ooc information (anything you, NOT your character learned oocly) and use it ic?

Is it metagaming when you notice footprints being made on the ground and you cast See Invisibility so you can see who might be walking around?

Is it metagaming if you see only an emote floating in the air and then you cast See Invisibilty so you may perhaps be able to see someone who's invisible?

Is it metagaming if you see a creature the has the word "Summoned" before the name of it (ex. Summoned Skeleton Warrior) and don't see the summoner anywhere around? What do you do? Automatically know it has to be a mage's summon just because of the floaty name and cast See Invisibility or tell the invisible person to come out of hiding?

YES.

Those IMO are forms of bad metagaming and it takes the fun away from some players.

*Sending a friendly tell to anyone who may be metagaming is always the best thing to do in my opinion just in case they don't realize they're doing it. If the person refuses to listen to anything you have to say then I would begin saving logs and taking screenshots just in case you continue experiences problems.

*No one should use ANY information they learn oocly (out of characterly) for ic (in character) purposes, no matter what reason you have. It's metagaming and it's bad.

*Exchanging information through tells and then using that information in the game is totally metagaming and it DOES NOT matter WHAT reason you have ("oh, my character is just that smart", "he/she would've found out eventually", my character suspects this or that", etc. are just a few I can come up with for now but I'm sure you get the point and those are poor excuses.

Here is a link to the Avlis page on Metagaming and I'm sure some of those rules also apply here as well:
http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=19070


~ To DMs: please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this... thanx ~



((rules aren't hard to follow nor are they hard to find and if you're unsure about something, ask a DM or another player))

[Jskee]

*reads post*

WOW...someone gets it! YAY! Nice post Traces.

Sending Tells to your friends, then them using that OOC information IC'ly is garbage and horrible metagaming.

We've all done it at times, but now it's becoming very common.

[obburner]

*reads posts and nods to self*

[Arkon]

Is it metagaming when you notice footprints being made on the ground and you cast See Invisibility so you can see who might be walking around?

Is it metagaming if you see only an emote floating in the air and then you cast See Invisibilty so you may perhaps be able to see someone who's invisible?
[/i][/color]

YES.

Wrong.

If you notice footprints coming out of nowhere, it is perfectly reasonable and IC to cast see invisible to find out where they are coming from.

If you see emotes, and they are Verbal or Acoustic emotes, then it would also be perfectly reasonable and IC to cast see invisible.. HOWEVER, if they are silent emotes, then yes.. doing this would be OOC and would be Metagaming.

On the other counts, I agree for the most part.

[NWDuneAuron]

http://www.ysgardhala.org/viewtopic.php?t=2547

[Traces Of Reality]

Is it metagaming when you notice footprints being made on the ground and you cast See Invisibility so you can see who might be walking around?

Is it metagaming if you see only an emote floating in the air and then you cast See Invisibilty so you may perhaps be able to see someone who's invisible?
[/i][/color]

YES.

Wrong.

If you notice footprints coming out of nowhere, it is perfectly reasonable and IC to cast see invisible to find out where they are coming from.

If you see emotes, and they are Verbal or Acoustic emotes, then it would also be perfectly reasonable and IC to cast see invisible.. HOWEVER, if they are silent emotes, then yes.. doing this would be OOC and would be Metagaming.

On the other counts, I agree for the most part.

*hug*

[Jskee]

Is it metagaming when you notice footprints being made on the ground and you cast See Invisibility so you can see who might be walking around?

Is it metagaming if you see only an emote floating in the air and then you cast See Invisibilty so you may perhaps be able to see someone who's invisible?
[/i][/color]

YES.

Wrong.

If you notice footprints coming out of nowhere, it is perfectly reasonable and IC to cast see invisible to find out where they are coming from.

If you see emotes, and they are Verbal or Acoustic emotes, then it would also be perfectly reasonable and IC to cast see invisible.. HOWEVER, if they are silent emotes, then yes.. doing this would be OOC and would be Metagaming.

On the other counts, I agree for the most part.

If you notice, there are footprints everywhere that cannot be explained. Take a walk in the Felmoran Ruins and you'll see footprints, yet no-one is there. I'd hope that those PC's that cast "See Invisibility or True Sight" at every suspicious footprint also cast when they come across these errant ones.

Also, if a PC sets you to dislike, it is an OOC setting and it is metagaming to immediately start buffing. This is especially true if you cannot even see the PC that set you to dislike.

What's the rule on portals? Is it ok to run through a portal and to see if a "stealthed" or "invisible" PC follows due to the portal going off? I am unclear on that one.

[methuselah]

What's the rule on portals? Is it ok to run through a portal and to see if a "stealthed" or "invisible" PC follows due to the portal going off? I am unclear on that one.

it's exploiting the limitations of the game engine and thus bad metagaming.

[Arkon]

As far as the footprints.. I am refering to moving footprints.. the kind that are made when you walk. Not just basic footprints.. hense why i said if you see footprints "Appearing out of nowhere"


And yes... if a portal fires, then someone fired it.. and the visual is the visual you see IG and IC. So yes, you would know someone fired that portal if you ICly see the visual

[Zombie]

Some times I wish there was more meta-gaming. The number of times poor Grovel has been chased from the Goblin Caves by over zelious adventurers......

Seriuosly though, I wouldnt have a problem with someone using a portal to confirm they were being followed. Any character with a reasonable wisdom score would be able to work that out. Besides, just because you know you are being followed it dosnt mean you can do anything about it.

I love the folk who buff every time the ground shakes. If I were a DM I would shake the ground all the time, just to watch folk buff

I do meta-game on occasion, but only when it is to make the game more fun. For example ignoring a graphic bug that makes someone invisible, healing someone after a fight so they dont get DPed, going to a location because someone sent me a tel saying they are in a bit of a mess, using tells to sort out 'bumping into' other characters.

Oh, I also try not to trigger too many monsters at once, especialy those damned lizards, they can dish out a hurt!

The only time I have been the 'victim' of meta-gaming is in a CVC situation where I paused to set them to hostile (4 characters) and they all ran off while I was doing it, buggers! Soon as I had set the first of them to hostile they all took off. Morgan holds a grudge and it took me two weeks to track them all down again

I would imagine the sneaky characters get it prety bad.....

[Odin Hammersong]

I love the folk who buff every time the ground shakes. If I were a DM I would shake the ground all the time, just to watch folk buff

Earthquakes generally don't happen without something following. I tend to think the NWN/Ysgard earthquake as a plain and simple warning that some shixt is goin down. In that respect, buff up and protect yourself. There are some characters that are really quite weak without their buffs. *coughs*.

IMHO, pretty much everyone can be guilty of metagaming in one sense or another. I've done it unintentionally many times, and thinking back on it I've done it knowingly, even though I wish I wouldn't have.

We're all human. I guess my point is that I think most metagaming is either a) completely unintentional and essentially brainfarting, or b)the players way of saying "hey, my character isnt a complete fool, he *will* catch on eventually".

Either way, it still falls into each players hands to make it the best RPing situation possible. I'd gladly see Wyland made a fool of and even whooped on, if it was RP-accurate *and* made for fun for everyone involved.

And I think the "make it fun for everyone involved" part should take the highest priority.

*tosses two copper as Wyland steps through a portal back to Hala *

[Cat]

As for "bergquakes" i wish me they would happen more oftens... after all its flying junk of rocks up there and from time to time they could hit the biger ones like hala.. it could be cool if from time to time we had random "comet showers" or rather stone showers falling on ground

[Psye Shaar]

Zombie wrote:
I love the folk who buff every time the ground shakes. If I were a DM I would shake the ground all the time, just to watch folk buff


Earthquakes generally don't happen without something following. I tend to think the NWN/Ysgard earthquake as a plain and simple warning that some shixt is goin down. In that respect, buff up and protect yourself. There are some characters that are really quite weak without their buffs. *coughs*.

I've got to agree with Odin on this one. 90% of the time, if there's an earthquake or other sudden anomaly ((previous ones have been floods, excessive snow and meteors etc)) then those without some kind of protection are likely to be in for a world of hurt... although saying that, the ones with all the buffs tend to be too

Any PC who's been around a while would instinctively expect the worst from such occurances because that's what their experience likely dictates.

Oh, I also try not to trigger too many monsters at once, especialy those damned lizards, they can dish out a hurt!

I'm the same with monster spawns if for example i'm taking Tris from A to B. If i know of a spawn point that can be walked round to avoid spawning in creatures which, 99% of the time would hardly even make him turn his head, then i'll walk round it. A perfect example would be goblins on the way to the Felmoran ruins or in a slightly tougher case, the frost giants in the ice palace. If this is unacceptable, then i can stop doing it and kill any and every single thing that would spawn, or stay invisible and leave epic quantity spawns for low levels to run into and get slaughtered by... Just seems kind of silly, so i don't.


One other thing from one of the other metagaming threads floating about is about meeting up with other players by partying up to find out where they are.
I agree that while it can be annoying for dm's, especially when people start shouting to their friends, there are numerous instances when it shouldn't be an issue. - PC's that spend nearly all their time together are going to know generally where the other is likely to be, or have pre-arranged to meet up etc - The server's very quiet and there's only a couple of people on. The chances of actually running into them are probably less than 5%, so a tell to say "Well i'm heading this way if you happen to be passing" is hardly going to disrupt anything else - Instances where you have a limited timescale and need to meet up with someone for an IC passing of required information or trades etc -
These are only a few, but IMHO instances where i think it should be ok to contact the other person via tell.

As for everything else.... yup

Disclaimer: All percentages brought to you in this post were done so under the premise that 87.634% of percentages made up for the purpose of arguments are 98.7832% likely to be incorrect. Thankyou and have a nice day.

[Jskee]

*reads Psye's post and chuckles* I was wondering where you generated those percentages!

I think this thread has slipped a bit off topic really, this thread is about BAD-metagaming. Please refer to Dune's post.

Obviously if player A logs in and sends a tell to player B, "hey, what's up man? where ya at? let's meet and rp (ie cyber)!!!" This is an example of GOOD metagaming and this isn't what this thread is about.

This is more along the lines of what this thread is about:

Player A goes through a transition...sees evil nasty PC X. Player A then sends a TELL to Player B and Player C, "watch out...nasty evil PC X is here!!!!". Player B and C then drink invisibility potions and go through the transition.

Player A and B are teleporting to Mirtho from some far away place, Player C and Player D want to attack player B....All players are grouped in the same party. Player C and Player D use the party list to "METAGAME" the location of Player B and thus set up an ambush to attack Player B using OOC knowledge to set up a IC confrontation.

Player A is stealthed and unseen by Player B. Player A sets Player B to dislike, Player B them commences to buff up for no IC reason.

b)the players way of saying "hey, my character isnt a complete fool, he *will* catch on eventually".

Please give an example of this, because sometimes this is the WORST type of metagaming. It can completely ruin a plot, and has several times since I've been playing in Hala.

[Odin Hammersong]

Please give an example of this, because sometimes this is the WORST type of metagaming. It can completely ruin a plot, and has several times since I've been playing in Hala.

I didn't have any examples in mind, I just meant that things can get very subjective when RPing. What one person thinks is a "sure thing" (i.e."I'm invisible so he cannot know I'm here!") is not necessarily the same view held by other folks(i.e."yeah he is invisible but i can hear him or see his footprints etc").

My only point is that very few things are black and white, cut and dried. Sure it's bad taste to intentionally metagame and screw someone's well laid plan. Sure it's crappy to metagame and set an ambush using OOC info. That is also one of the hardest things to do as a player: seperate IC knowledge from OOC knowledge. I know I've mixed them up a time or two.

If it comes to the point of ruining a plot or well laid plains though, then obviously the person is a wanker and shot be drawn and quartered immediately.

I've had a few situations where a PC was metagaming and it ran the risk of ruining something I was doing. I sent them a Tell and said something along the lines of "whether its metagaming or not isn't the point right now, just please dont muck up what im tryin to do here. thanks" Of course, that's IF you have prior knowledge of said metagaming. If they just butcher an event or situation with OOC knowledge, then let them know they suck. Politely of course. *coughs*

--Odin

[Dengar]

Everyone has at one time or another done it... But that doesn't make it ok.
I am sure Dengar has, but I have of late tried to keep my little dwarf butt out of trouble.

EX> You know personally, people OOC, they call you and tell you where they will be. Or you are sitting right next to them, and can see where they are. This is why I mainly play at home... I found it to be ridiculous, we didn't have to talk in-game, we could speak to each other, and see each others screens.
EX2> Some one sees you are on, invites you, looks at the party pictures, and can see where you are, or straight up in a Tell asks you.
Last time this happened, Elly, who was in Tel... where I had planed on going, asked me where I was... I said find me... They got very upset, when all I said is I am leaving Mirtho... so they start walking that way. I went to Nagritch to the docks, and took the boat to Tel.
He asked why I would not wait for him... I told him I didn't know IG whre he was, there is no way for me to know, and I ain't getting screwed cause he doesn't understand that is metagaming. Expescailly when he knows that I am under alot of pressure to watch my actions from the DMs...

I made alot of mistakes in the past, and I am sick of paying for it... but I made that decision, and I am trying to stay out of Trouble.

One problem, is Death... You are out somewhere, even thouggh you've been there before, and lived, all of a sudden you are dead... some one asks if you would like a raise... how many of you actually say no? I could only think of a few who might. But in order for them to know where your body is, you have to Tell them. That is Metagaming.
Someone using a new character, that magically knows your name before you tell them... That is metagaming.

I do have a question about invisibility.
You are walking around, and someone invisible, passes close to you, for a breif moment, unless their hide is extremly high, you catch a glimpes...
Do you see that, or is that not suppose to happen, and we should disregard the sighting?

Psion powers...
When they are using most of their powers, the powers can not be seen, except when its a ray... I had this problem a long time ago, but I had an argument with a psion who told me I couldn't see the ray coming from them. Can you see the Ray IG?

It is only a game, but it's a game we all paid money to play, and it seems ridiculous to cheat or Metagame, just because you don't think it is going to affect any one but you, and your party... but it affects everyone playing...


If some one invites me into thier party, and they are in Mirtho, and I am in Nagritch, I will take a boat to Tel, and walk up the road, and through the Ice palace to get there... and most of the time, the people have already started moving on.
The only time I will go straight there, is when it was prearranged IG, IC, and RPd that way.

I think I've said enough.

[Jskee]

I do have a question about invisibility.
You are walking around, and someone invisible, passes close to you, for a breif moment, unless their hide is extremly high, you catch a glimpes...
Do you see that, or is that not suppose to happen, and we should disregard the sighting?

It's a problem with the game engine and you should disregard the sighting. Same goes for seeing someone right at a transition, etc...

[Final Shinryuu]

When you "see" a transparant image of a hiding or invisible player, that means your character has passed a listen check for that round, and can hear where they are, but can not actually see them.
When a player passes right next to you, you have a huge bonus on listen vs. them. That's why the transparant image often shows up.

So, keep an eye out. If they show up transparant, you can hear but not see them.

[T'Holoth Shadowborn]

I agree with Psye and Odin abou tthe whole earthquake everyone buffs up like crazy.

It is a little frustrating sometimes that the minute something happens everyone starts to prepare for the worst but look at it from the other point of fiew.

If the last 9 times an earthquake happened minutes before a horde of monsters attacks then even with a wisdom score of 8 your character should put two and two together and assume something bad is comming.
Pavlov's law or theory or whatever

Invisibility is always an argument. Someone invisible will always stand RIGHT next to someone and get upset when that person sees them or reacts to them.
"I wasn invisible you couldn't see me" True enough. Of course there is a bunch of other factors.
The person making noise, breathing, steping on sticks and stones, their equipment moving around. Birds flying into them and leaves sticking against them. snow etc..

It gets way too technical and just becomes an argument.

I've seen the anti-metagaming crusade get pretty crazy.
Characters were only allowed ONE back pack, one set of armor (that armor too 2 RL minutes to put on, which you had to emoute), you can't change in public.
You were not allowed to party with anyone unless they were in the same screen. [How many of us join a party and automatically make our way to that persons location? I'm horrible for it. Why? I don't want to play alone]

Invisibility is just an issue that will always end in argument.

[Cat]

I do have a question about invisibility.
You are walking around, and someone invisible, passes close to you, for a breif moment, unless their hide is extremly high, you catch a glimpes...
Do you see that, or is that not suppose to happen, and we should disregard the sighting?

I looked how it would be in PnP by d20 ref:

INVISIBILITY

The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures
Invisible Creature Is . . . DC
In combat or speaking 0
Moving at half speed Move Silently check result
Moving at full speed Move Silently check result –4
Running or charging Move Silently check result –20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

Bioware apareantly simplified it by removing any spot and listen check and made it so that when a creaure is 3 meters around a you, you can automaticly spot a creature in way that "something is there" and pinpoint it like with a listen check won by 20 points.
So its actualy made in favor of invisible creatures because its pretty easy to remain 3 meters away.

[Final Shinryuu]

Yup.
In other words, you can hear them if they're nearby, and pinpoint their location, but you can't see the creature.

[Zombie]

Oh, i dont have any issue with the earthquake buffing, i just think its funny watching spell after spell after spell.

I dont have any buffs *sniff*