See PCs Wings with Cloaks

JGunn · Post by **JGunn** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:59 am

Avariels, Archons, RDDs, and other winged denizens of CoPap! Tired of hiding your wings whenever you throw a cloak over your shoulders?

Look no further than these simple instructions to see PC's wings with cloaks!

Disclaimer 1: I searched the Hala Forums for any Disguise Rules concerning hiding wings and found none, but I could have missed it. If there is such a thing and it is allowed to hide wings under cloaks then I apologize profusely for offering these instructions.

Disclaimer 2: For those unfamiliar with this sort of change it is CLIENTSIDE ONLY, which means that only you and those players who make this change can see the difference.

This is very similar to the changes suggested on the Avlis Forums to change Avlis_main1_6.hak to see the dynamic races, (found here: http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=85678&hilit= ) and should not cause any problems. I hope.

And the best part? This change should make wings visible on all CoPap worlds, From Hades to Ysgard to Arkaz. However, I have not checked this myself, so consider this Disclaimer 3.

Just follow these instructions and you should be fine.

1) Go to your \NeverwinterNights\NWN\utils directory and double click on nwhak.exe. This is Bioware's HakPak Editor.

2) Once the HakPak Editor opens, choose File, then Open, then select avlis_main1_6.hak, which will be in your hak folder.

3) Right click the cloakmodel.2da file and choose extract. Save it somewhere you will remember, such as Desktop. Close the Avlis hak.

4) Still using the HakPak Editor, now open copaphak4_8.hak.

5) Select the Avlis version of the cloakmodel.2da from wherever you just saved it (You do remember where you just saved it, don't you?)

6)Drag this file into the HakPak Editor and copaphak4_8.hak. You should get a message that asks 'Resource "cloakmodel.2da" was already found on the list, would you like to replace it?' Click Yes.

7) Save the updated .hak and close the file.

Log in and see wings!

For those wondering, I tried to make an override like they suggested on the Bioware boards, it just did not work. Probably for the same reason that making an override for the Avlis dynamic playable creatures did not work and the hak itself had to be modified.

Enjoy!

Oh, if any DM noticed that I logged in and out about 10 times in succession around 0900 GMT, it was because I was testing all the permutations of override vs. hak until I finally hit on this solution.

Daecon · Post by **Daecon** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:29 pm

*edits hak*

Daecon · Post by **Daecon** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:40 pm

If anyone wants a pre-edited hak to just download/copy over their existing:

http://www.mediafire.com/?uztuzcwynhf

Idonia · Post by **Idonia** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:26 am

wait, whaaa? I thought this was already in effect on Avlis. I see wings and tails popping out of cloaks all the time and I don't even have the hak! :(Why me!

JGunn · Post by **JGunn** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:13 am

The Avlis hak already has these changes, that is why you can see wings there.

Otherwise, I am not sure what you mean.

Brayon · Post by **Brayon** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:42 pm

upholstery_imp wrote:wait, whaaa? I thought this was already in effect on Avlis. I see wings and tails popping out of cloaks all the time and I don't even have the hak! :(Why me!

Avlis' world specific hak, has the modified .2da that allows players to see wings and tails through cloaks. I believe their reasoning was they could not be covered.

The above .hak edit is to the CoPaP hak, and allows you to see wings and tails on other servers that do not have their world specific .hak w/ the cloak overide. In this case, its the non-Avlis part of CoPaP that doesn't use the modified cloak.2da.

My only issue is that people can easily Metagame Wings and tails with the above .hak change. My $.02 on this, is that on worlds other than Avlis, if you use the above .hak, then wings and tails are OOC. But that is my opion.

*goes back to lurk mode*

EDITED: for clarification.

JGunn · Post by **JGunn** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:26 pm

I could not find any ruling where wings or tails are to be considered hidden by cloaks, but I did point out in Disclaimer 1 that if there is such a thing, I would pull these instructions.

In speaking with Daecon about it, it was my understanding that it was the same general idea everywhere that wings could not be hidden, but other problems were a much higher priority so formally updating the hak had been put on the back-burner.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:57 pm

I was wondering what it looks like to have wings popping out through a cloak. Can someone put up a screen shot? On the face of things I imagine it would look kinda weird

Brayon · Post by **Brayon** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:58 pm

JGunn wrote:I could not find any ruling where wings or tails are to be considered hidden by cloaks, but I did point out in Disclaimer 1 that if there is such a thing, I would pull these instructions.

In speaking with Daecon about it, it was my understanding that it was the same general idea everywhere that wings could not be hidden, but other problems were a much higher priority so formally updating the hak had been put on the back-burner.

My reasoning for OOC is that not everyone is going to Download this modified .hak. For instance, lets say I had a RDD, and I was not wanting to be public about it, and so I was wearing a cloak to cover my wings. This is an IC action that I am doing, that is a Logical action of something that can be done in a fantasy setting. i.e. Arkangel from X-Men, Goliath and the others from Gargoales...

Now I am roaming the known planes and planets looking for adventure, and staying away from the world of Avlis. If someone who uses this .hak, were to come up to me, and say "Hey nice Wings." I would first go IC, "What are you talking about?" and then OOC Tell: How do you know I have wings, when we have never met, and they are covered?

But again, this is just my opinion, and I for one give you props for doing this.

I do know that its being talked about on other world's forums about the IC/OOC usage of the modified .hak. Arkaz has one posting in their AtT, with a response of OOC, as the opinion of that DM that posted.

corwink · Post by **corwink** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:57 pm

I do know that its being talked about on other world's forums about the IC/OOC usage of the modified .hak. Arkaz has one posting in their AtT, with a response of OOC, as the opinion of that DM that posted

That was me and yep that's my opinion. If a pc wants to hide their wings, they should be allowed to do so. I think it can be done, maybe not in the real world but hey, this isn't the real world.

Those are some good examples Brayon and I'll add one to it. The movie Michael, about the archangel Gabriel played by John Travolta, with a harness and big trench coat he hide his wings.

Tremayne7 · Post by **Tremayne7** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:19 pm

I have to agree with Brayon and Corwin. Not downloading the hak. Most characters with wings wear cloaks to HIDE them, not make it public knowledge. Nice idea, but not something I'm adding to my game.

JGunn · Post by **JGunn** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:15 pm

Not to turn this into a discussion about fantasy vs reality, but in my opinion wings are not simply a fashion statement. Just the weight of wings affect balance and movement, and a simple piece of cloth is not going to change something that fundamental.

For example, try walking round with your arms held straight to your body. Slide them inside your shirt if you need to (if you are at home, please not at work) then walk round, try going upstairs and down. Note how your balance is going to be off, and soon your arms will feel cramped. You will not want to stay in this position for long.

In your example of Michael, with Gabriel hiding his wings under a coat, was Gabriel wearing that harness in every scene? Could you see that he had something on his back under his coat? Or did the actor not wear anything until that particular scene when the costume designer fitted him with a harness, and suddenly he has wings with a six-foot long wingspan?

Furthermore, for those who have worked with live birds, few birds can stand to have their feathers smashed and pressed together as they would be under a cloak, the irritation would not be able to be put up with for long. Again, wings are not a fashion statement.

Perhaps when I discussed this with Daecon there was a misunderstanding about why the cloak.2da hadn't been changed. But I have little more belief that someone could hide a wing that is almost as tall as the elf its attached to under a cloak, than someone could suddenly gain a pegleg and a hook for a hand simply by changing their outfit.

NWDuneAuron · Post by **NWDuneAuron** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:29 pm

If you wear a cloak to hide your wings, your wings are hidden. Makes sense? Possibly not, but it's how the engine deals with it.

Post by **Arkon** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:49 pm

Official Ruling on it. If a person wears a cloak to hide their wings, and you have a modified hak, the person's wings are still ICly hidden... so you're best bet is to NOT use that hak while you are on Hala because I do not tolerate any sort of Metagaming.

So I'll make this nice and simple... The Avlis fix on Hala is considered Metagaming. If you use this hak and try to claim you can see someone's wings that they don't want you to see because they are wearing a cloak, then you are in the wrong.

Daecon · Post by **Daecon** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:27 pm

I agree on the comments about wings and being hidden by cloaks. It doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Arkon wrote:Official Ruling on it. If a person wears a cloak to hide their wings, and you have a modified hak, the person's wings are still ICly hidden... so you're best bet is to NOT use that hak while you are on Hala because I do not tolerate any sort of Metagaming.

So I'll make this nice and simple... The Avlis fix on Hala is considered Metagaming. If you use this hak and try to claim you can see someone's wings that they don't want you to see because they are wearing a cloak, then you are in the wrong.

As for it being brought up and hak editing, apologies on my behalf to both JGunn and the Hala Team as it was ultimately down to my implying it would be okay which led both to the hak editing and the player posting details about it.

I fully acknowledge it as my mistake and that I was in the wrong to imply it was alright to do it.

- D

Post by **Arkon** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:39 am

Oh no no no. It's perfectly fine for someone to edit the hak if they so choose to. They just need to be aware that a persons wings can be folded up and hidden inside a cloak. For asthetic reasons I like the hak edit. Just make sure that you ICly respect that the person has a cloak on to hide their wings.

BTW!!! Those of you hiding your wings.... you better be RPing hiding those wings. Wings stuck up inside a cloak all day are going to get EXTREMELY uncomfortable.

VIpAcT · Post by **VIpAcT** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:21 am

Did you ever know that you're my hero?
You're everything I wish I could be.
I could fly higher than an eagle,
'cause you are the wind beneath my wings.

-- Dedicated to all the wings out there getting smothered by cloaks. One day you'll be free. One day...

corwink · Post by **corwink** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:39 pm

You're a nut VIpAcT!

makelovelikewar · Post by **makelovelikewar** » Sat May 03, 2008 4:09 pm

I like the idea that wings can be covered by cloaks but that it isn't comfortable for very long.

Question: Would the wings themselves be noticeable as lumps under the cloak but their type hidden? Or are they forced to be folded so tightly under a cloak that they're not visible at all, even as lumps?

Thanks!

Xanthalas · Post by **Xanthalas** » Sat May 03, 2008 4:31 pm

It would be my guess, that the lumps, while visible, would not be telling. Many of our PC's wear robes over Armor, including cloaks over shields, and/or weaponry. Some people just wear a lot of robes too. Considering the amount of racial mix we have, (Other worlds have mutants and such too. though I haven't seen a lizard man make it this far, personally.) I don't know how much we could assume from lumps.

Just a thought though.

Post by **Arkon** » Sat May 03, 2008 11:19 pm

Xanthalas has the right of it. You'd see the lumps.. but as he stated.. .many wear armor that when the cloak is removed, has spikes... may RP that their weapon or shield is stored on their back... the lumps would be indistinguishable from these items.

Rudiki · Post by **Rudiki** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:13 am

"Evil PCs! Tired of ruining your best cloaks when those pesky spikes poke through? Try Acme rubber spike-bumpers! Just slip them over the ends of those spikes and problem solved!"

T'Holoth Shadowborn · Post by **T'Holoth Shadowborn** » Thu May 08, 2008 3:06 am

JGunn wrote:Not to turn this into a discussion about fantasy vs reality, but in my opinion wings are not simply a fashion statement. Just the weight of wings affect balance and movement, and a simple piece of cloth is not going to change something that fundamental.

For example, try walking round with your arms held straight to your body. Slide them inside your shirt if you need to (if you are at home, please not at work) then walk round, try going upstairs and down. Note how your balance is going to be off, and soon your arms will feel cramped. You will not want to stay in this position for long.

etc...

Your overlooking the 'fact" that PCs can carry 12 sets of fullplatemail, 6 towershields, a matrix "I need guns" amount of weapons and 8 million gold pieces.

You said not to turn it into a reality vs fantasy discussion my friend but thats exactly what you are doing.

Me I like the fact that my characters wings can be hidden from general sight.
1. because of the RP involved where I can attempt to blend in. Maybe someone could see parts of the wings, maybe not. Kinda knitpicky. regardless the rule is they cant
2. I find wearing a cloak with wings jetting out the side ala like they have in avlis looks utterly dumb.

Trying to apply reality in the form of balance and modern physics to the NWN game engine is a double edged sword without a hilt.

Xanthalas · Post by **Xanthalas** » Thu May 08, 2008 3:52 am

Not to turn this into a discussion about fantasy vs reality, but in my opinion wings are not simply a fashion statement. Just the weight of wings affect balance and movement, and a simple piece of cloth is not going to change something that fundamental.

For example, try walking round with your arms held straight to your body. Slide them inside your shirt if you need to (if you are at home, please not at work) then walk round, try going upstairs and down. Note how your balance is going to be off, and soon your arms will feel cramped. You will not want to stay in this position for long.

You forget though, Some people simply aren't used to balancing like that.
If you're to assume things, assume all things. And perhaps covering one's wings up, is common practice, perhaps to keep them protected and clean, and from the peering eyes of another?
There's many reasons that one could, or could not rationalize the things. Hence the DM's response on what to do. It's not so much about realism or common sense, it's just about getting everyone on the same table.