Changeling

Final Shinryuu · Post by **Final Shinryuu** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:09 pm

Although it is suggested, it isen't written exactly, and I would like to make sure people know the following:

You cannot make a spellcraft check on your own to identify someone as a changeling, only the one done automatically by the game engine if you see them memorize a form or change form.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

NWDuneAuron · Post by **NWDuneAuron** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:14 pm

Final Shinryuu wrote:Although it is suggested, it isen't written exactly, and I would like to make sure people know the following:

You cannot make a spellcraft check on your own to identify someone as a changeling, only the one done automatically by the game engine if you see them memorize a form or change form.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

This is correct.

silverdragonams · Post by **silverdragonams** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:59 am

What about when you cast GMW or keen on a changling in a form that obviously cant carry weapons. The spell should fail. Does the mage know that someting is not quite right with this creature when it doesn't? (although not necessarily know its a changeling)

Or do changings weapons and armor change to fit the shape of the form they took?

Or should they not be carrying weapons and armor in a form that couldn't normally use them?

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:51 am

silverdragonams wrote:What about when you cast GMW or keen on a changling in a form that obviously cant carry weapons. The spell should fail. Does the mage know that someting is not quite right with this creature when it doesn't? (although not necessarily know its a changeling)

Or do changings weapons and armor change to fit the shape of the form they took?

Or should they not be carrying weapons and armor in a form that couldn't normally use them?

When a changeling carrying a sword and wearing full plate changes into something, for instance a Fairy Dragon, the items merge with the form, so the fairy Dragon is now using it's claws. All the mage would see is that it enchants the Fairy Dragons claws.

silverdragonams · Post by **silverdragonams** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:22 pm

My point is GMW and Keen dont work on a creatures claws...

NWDuneAuron · Post by **NWDuneAuron** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:35 pm

There is no other way to know if someone is a changeling. Saying you can detect them in other ways is cheesing and will be punished.

Post by **Arkon** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:44 pm

That is not exactly true.... GMW does work on monks hands (gloves), or used to, so in the mage's mind, it would seem kinda the same way imo.

Anyone caught using any method, other than the ones mentioned specifically in the rules, to identify, act differently towards, discriminate against, etc, a changeling character will be punished for Metagaming, period.

Yes I realize I come down kinda hard on this topic, I play a changeling. I know what it's liked to be metagamed for being a changeling, it is one of the single most annoying things i've had to deal with when playing Kay'lana. Now that I am in a capacity to do something about it, believe you me, I will.

To reiterate... If I or any of our staff catches, gets founded and proven complaints about, or otherwise finds out that you are using any method other than the above mentioned in the rules, expect to be punished for Metagaming.

silverdragonams · Post by **silverdragonams** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:26 pm

Arkon,
I wasnt asking if the character would KNOW that it's a changling, simply if the mage can make the logical conclusion that the creature isnt normal (sam way you can make the conclusion something isnt right when the changling changes right in front of you)

As for the monks gloves, the spell works on a monks gloves, and not on his hands, so a mage could see the difference if the engine worked that way.

BTW I just asked Dune this question. If you would rather, I will ask the Avlis team

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:33 pm

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't GMW or FW work on things such as claws anyway?

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:40 pm

Arkon wrote:So in that respect, if a changeling character requests a buff while in a form that does not carry a weapon, then I would recommend you ignore the request. If it's an ooc request, treat it as such and ignore it (or inform the player that you wont' do it and why, up to you).

If it's an IC request, then I will arbitrarily authorize SAID MAGE AND NO ONE ELSE to make a wisdom/intel check at a DC of 10 to decide if they realize something is up. Now, that being said, they will still not know that the person is a changeling, but they will know that something is definately not right with the person (IE, they are mental, they are illusionists, etc)

Problems derive from this though due to the way NWN works. I.e. there are lots of static forms that would have no problem using most weapons, but due to the way NWN works, the weapon isn't visable, thus the changeling will be missing out on buffs due to more IG limitations (as if there weren't enough already, i.e. not being able to have more than 1 type of dynamic form and not being able to change anything about it).

Would it be too much to ask to just ignore this and continue to buff people, without being so nit-picky about it?

Psye Shaar · Post by **Psye Shaar** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:56 pm

Yes it would... some forms just simply couldn't carry the weapons that they are using... and it wouldn't take a genius to notice that in the middle of a fight... 'wow.. that little things doing an awful lot of damage considering he's only holding a dagger....'

Psye Shaar · Post by **Psye Shaar** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:58 pm

*duplicated*

silverdragonams · Post by **silverdragonams** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:19 pm

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't GMW or FW work on things such as claws anyway?

Flame weapon cast on teeth and claws...sounds painful to me.

I can kinda understand GMW, but, that means you can cast it on summoned animals, familiars, dominated creatures...

Makes for powerful mages....

Post by **Arkon** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:48 pm

I've played a changeling for a long, long, long time... from what I can remember the number of forms that don't allow a weapon you are carrying to show are very limited. Almost any form that has a normal hand will show the weapon you are carrying. Sorry, this argument will not hold water.. if you want the benefit of a buff, then don't use a form that can't show a weapon... simple as that.

Alternatively, you can RP (ie emote) that you are holding X weapon while in that form... though that will be left up to the players to decide if the form could use said weapon, etc....

Final Shinryuu · Post by **Final Shinryuu** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:02 pm

Yeah, with Feril, I emote her as fighting with her claws and teeth. I don't expect people to cast GMW or Flame Weapon on her, and for the most part, they don't.
Of course, a little stoneskin now and then is nice.

Also, a dragon's claws are prehensile, according to the 3.0 edition sourcebook Draconomicon. Three finger claws in the front, and a "thumb" claw in back, which is opposible to the front claws. As a faerie dragon is small size, equivilant to a halfling, and natural ones have 18 dex, they are certainly capable of lifting, carrying, and manipulating objects. (Their claws just do not have the set-up to wield weapons, however.)
Feril has 20 dex, so she is certainly capable of doing any physical action that a natural faerie dragon could with it's body.
I'm just saying this so that I don't have to explain myself every time someone sends me a tell saying it's cheezing that I emote Feril being able to blow a horn/lift and aim a rod/uncork a bottle, as that is something I have had to do often.

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:32 pm

Arkon wrote:I've played a changeling for a long, long, long time... from what I can remember the number of forms that don't allow a weapon you are carrying to show are very limited. Almost any form that has a normal hand will show the weapon you are carrying. Sorry, this argument will not hold water.. if you want the benefit of a buff, then don't use a form that can't show a weapon... simple as that.

Alternatively, you can RP (ie emote) that you are holding X weapon while in that form... though that will be left up to the players to decide if the form could use said weapon, etc....

What about Xen, he doesn't use weapons and gloves would merge with any form...

Psye Shaar · Post by **Psye Shaar** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:05 pm

The point that's trying to be made here is that any changeling in a form that wouldn't normally carry any kind of weapon can't expect to have anyone cast any offensive buffs on them.. i.e GMW or darkfire etc.

As far as the caster is concerned, they'd be casting it straight onto flesh/scales etc...

T'Holoth Shadowborn · Post by **T'Holoth Shadowborn** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:06 am

So changlings are like psions.

Easy to metagame, Best played by skilled role players.

Enverex · Post by **Enverex** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:32 am

T'Holoth Shadowborn wrote:So changlings are like psions.

Easy to metagame, Best played by skilled role players.

Ah, that explains my problem then.

slave_of_emotions · Post by **slave_of_emotions** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:15 pm

Psye Shaar wrote:Yes it would... some forms just simply couldn't carry the weapons that they are using... and it wouldn't take a genius to notice that in the middle of a fight... 'wow.. that little things doing an awful lot of damage considering he's only holding a dagger....'

And some wont see any weapons at all, how does a pseudo dragon use with her tiny claws a longsword , carry around a cloak and wear a huge armor ?

Feril is using a scimitar, she is a changeling not a shifter, her items dont melt with her form.

Final Shinryuu · Post by **Final Shinryuu** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:48 pm

Orleron wrote: Whenever you morph, the stuff you have on you is morphed with you. So if you are holding a +4 fire damage sword and you change into a dog, you are now a dog that can swing for +4 fire damage. If he was wearing plate armor, you are now an AC18 dog. That is one difference between this and a shifter/polymorpher. You don't get any special abilities, but you retain the use of your gear as part of your body. If the model you changed into supports the gear, it will show on your avatar.

From http://www.avlis.org/viewtopic.php?t=28 ... g&start=25

In other words, only the items that a dragon would be able to wear can be seen worn by Feril. Rings, bracers on her forelegs, ect. The rest is merged into the form, and is still active. If anyone thinks it is odd that her bite deals some heat damage, deal with it ICly.

Final Shinryuu · Post by **Final Shinryuu** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:50 pm

And in case you are wondering, Orleron is the man who invented, wrote, and coded the Changeling race.
If Nob, Arkon, and the rest of the Hala staff want them treated differently here, I am sure they will say so.

T'Holoth Shadowborn · Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:50 pm

Can't argue with the boss

Idonia · Post by **Idonia** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 1:57 am

Well I know he "invented" the race on CoPaP but I don't know about being the first person to make it err D&D-wide..

Final Shinryuu · Post by **Final Shinryuu** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:22 am

upholstery_imp wrote:Well I know he "invented" the race on CoPaP but I don't know about being the first person to make it err D&D-wide..

It may have been around longer, but most recently it's appeared in the Ebberon campaign setting. However, that version has almost nothing in common with the Avlis Changeling which Orleron wrote up. You can still find the thread on the Avlis boards where they discuss the race as they are creating it, balance out the powers, stats, ect.